Red catch Misty Gyarados

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Mon May 23, 2011 8:00 am

If they're going to animate Pikachu against Onix, make sure to have Pikachu user Thundershock on Onix's horn. I don't know how it keeps bypassing a ground type, but it sure beats the heck out of Onix.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:20 pm

I hate to revive an old thread, but I was on Tvtropes recently (god, I love that site), and I came across the PokeSpe Headscratchers Topic. And some people have already asked some questions about these plotholes, with usual logical explanations.

When reading one's question on how pikachu defeated onix, one troper said:
Actually, Onix was in the air at that point of time, and in many Pokemon adaptions, Ground types can't become immune to the effects of electricity if they're not touching the ground.

I think its a logical explanation (though kinda weak in some cases), but logical enough that I feel we would'nt have to change it. (I dunno...it makes sense to me! And I don't want to deviate too far from the author's original ideas) But of course, if people would rather go with the ideas we've already brought up in the topic ('cause we've already had some perfectly logical deviations that make pika vs onix make more sense), then that would be fine as well!

And also, for the rhydon one, another troper said:
The Rhydon was defeated when the cave ceiling fell, it wasn't technically Pikachu defeating him, but more like winning Red and Misty time to escape.

Which makes sense as well. I dunno, I think Tvtropes has some pretty good explanations for some logical mistakes in the manga! So for some of the plot holes, we wouldn't have to change the source material too much! (so if anyone wants to see what else they covered, here ya go!) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/Ptitled53fvupl
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:46 pm

There are actually a number of reasons I've seen for electric attacks hitting ground types.

1.) Rhyhorn/don's horn is supposedly a weakpoint. Makes sense, when you consider that drills are metallic, but it makes the Lightningrod ability very weird, especially since in the FRLG Chapter, Green uses the Lightningrod ability to protect his Pokemon from Pika's electric attacks without Rhydon being harmed.

2.) In the anime, I'm pretty sure there was a scene where Pikachu is able to shock a Cubone that isn't holding it's bone. Cubone (and it's evolved form, Marowak) both can have the Lightningrod ability as well, so it makes sense.

3.) The ONLY instance in which I remember something being more affected by electric attacks because it was in mid-air is when Pikachu battled Treecko. Brock even explained in the episode that grass-types only have that resistance when they are planted on the ground, so leaping into the air left it vulnerable.

Also:
The Rhydon was defeated when the cave ceiling fell, it wasn't technically Pikachu defeating him, but more like winning Red and Misty time to escape.
Rhydon was never shown to be KO'd or not. It was simply cut off from Red and Misty when the passage was blocked. The question is how Pika could have affected Rhyhorn, or caused the cave-in.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:57 pm

Well, I agree with 1) and 2) making sense for electricity affecting ground, but they would definitely be unpopular reasons to use, especially because of fan negativity to the "Aim for the horn"/Lightning Rod ability fiasco. And I was always wondering about the whole Grass resistance over Electricity, but I guess the "mid-air" solution with Onix wouldn't make more sense to other viewers.

And I agree with you! After re-reading that chapter (I really need to review some of the RGB arc), while Rhydon and Team Rocket is indeed cut off from Red and Misty in the fight, Pikachu does at least shock Rhyhorn once, with a major effect on him. So there is still an issue with that. But, I do believe your solution with Bide would be a viable answer, especially with the above-mentioned Stomp by Rhyhorn.

So, I guess we should just stick with some of our solutions, huh? ^^
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:36 pm

What I was or am planning to do at present:

The Black Glove wrote:

Pika Vs Onix

1.) Pika uses Bide. It survives several attacks from Onix, then blasts it backwards. KO. Unlikely, seeing as how you receive the TM for Bide by beating Brock (maybe Brock can be amazed how it learned the technique despite not having ever seen it), and the fact that Red saved it from a Skull Bash seconds earlier, only to have it be a punching bag is a bit counter-productive, especially since the Pokemon Center is burned down.

2.) Pika uses Quick Attack. The little rodent is too fast for Onix, and chips away it's health. KO.

3.) Pika stands on the edge of the ring during a repeat of Onix's Skull Bash, leading Brock to believe it has nowhere to run. As Onix closes in, Pika uses Flash. The bright light blinds Onix and the bystanders, and while they are blinded, Pika leaps over Onix to land in the ring. Onix's forward momentum from Skull Bash carries it out of the ring, the only time in the entire series where a trainer loses by Ring Out (although Red's Lax came close during the fight with Green). Oddly enough, this move makes complete sense, since Pika is seen using it in "Vs. Rhyhorn" to light up the cave (meaning it was possible it knew the move before the fight), and it is possible to use Flash without the Boulderbadge in battle.

4.) Pika uses a series of Thundershocks that collide all at once. The blast releases a shock wave that cancels out the ones that Onix is supposedly generating. The sudden loss of control causes Onix great strain in its spinning, causing it to crumble. KO. It works when you consider that lightning bolts technically cause a massive amount of kinetic energy, but still feels a little awkward.

5.) Pika shocks the Gym's Sprinklers, like Ash did in the Anime. Rock is weak to water. KO.

6.) Although it's as bad as Iron Tail, Hidden Power is also a possible attack (although since Pika never uses it against Giovanni...it leaves people wondering, and then we have another plot hole.)

7.) Deus Ex Pikachu. AKA "Aim for the Horn!" KO.

Pika blasts onix apart as in manga, can be drawn upon as an example of unpredictability in battles. That scene was cool, and I don't wanna change it . . . we will if people in general are against the whole electric move KOs a ground type thing. My opinion is that as the manga left fans going wtf happened, we can do the same Smile if we feel the need to hrow in a reference and explanation a little later, it can be the whole ground type can sometimes be affected by eletric attacks in midair, but they have a tendency to remain grounded.


[/quote]Red Captures Gyara

1.) Since Gyara was captured, it is possible it wasn't kept in a Pokeball in the first place (in a flashback with Blaine, it's being held in a giant fish tank of sorts). Hence, it would have been possible to capture.

2.) Team Rocket, having stolen Gyara's Great Ball, runs off with it and experiment on it. Misty has been trying to track them down for months, and finally chases after [a Grunt/Blaine/Giovanni], who has Gyara's Great Ball. Misty demands he return it, and he smiles and says she can have the "failure" back. He releases the Gyarados, then crushes the Great Ball beneath his foot. While Misty fights Gyara, he sneaks off. Red arrives later, and because Gyara's Great Ball was destroyed, he is able to capture it in a Pokeball.[/quote]

the second one, gyara is released at some point or other, else counts as released. We could leave it as mysterious, e.g. 'wait, this is your pokemon? how come i could catch it with my pokeball then?' '... dunno' 'guess you don;t count as its owner if it's attacking you' . . . well, something smoother than that.


Pika VS Rhyhorn

1.) Well, if we look to the original manga, Pika mixes in a bunch of rubble with its electric attacks, and sends them hurtling at Rhyhorn when they first meet. Since it took a massive attack beforehand, Bide seems like a safe bet.

2.) We could also assume Pika used Thundershock to blast the rocks away and send them flying at Rhyhorn. Just sayin.

3.) Red uses Saur or Poli instead, since they have a type advantage.

It's electro rock throw.

Pika VS Rhydon

1.) Again, Bide seems like a safe bet. Pika takes a full-on Stomp from a very large and heavy Pokemon, so then it blasts itself out. The following blast releases enough kinetic energy into the ground to throw Pika into the air, where it bounds off the walls with Quick Attack, weakening the rocks to cause the celing to cave in.

2.) Pika could also use Thundershock to blast away the area under Rhydon's foot, giving it enough space to dash off with Quick Attack.

1a+2a.) In both scenarios, Quick Attack can be replaced with Thundershock, with the shockwave blasting away the rocks to cause the cave-in.

3.) Red uses Saur or Poli instead, since they have a type advantage. This can also be supported by Poli being the one who carries Staryu out.

electricity to propel away, then causes cave in. good opportunity to say something electricity effectiveness against ground types.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:17 am

Supernova wrote:What I was or am planning to do at present:

Pika blasts onix apart as in manga, can be drawn upon as an example of unpredictability in battles. That scene was cool, and I don't wanna change it . . . we will if people in general are against the whole electric move KOs a ground type thing. My opinion is that as the manga left fans going wtf happened, we can do the same Smile if we feel the need to throw in a reference and explanation a little later, it can be the whole ground type can sometimes be affected by eletric attacks in midair, but they have a tendency to remain grounded.

Ah. Touche. Still, it has always been a point of fan arguing over electric attacks affecting ground types.

the second one, gyara is released at some point or other, else counts as released. We could leave it as mysterious, e.g. 'wait, this is your pokemon? how come i could catch it with my pokeball then?' '... dunno' 'guess you don;t count as its owner if it's attacking you'... well, something smoother than that.
I still like the idea of foreshadowing Giovanni or Blaine here. It gives us an introduction to our main villains, and gives the Gym Leaders more of a direct connection to them.

It's electro rock throw.
I'm sorry, but I simply cannot agree with you on this one.

electricity to propel away, then causes cave in. good opportunity to say something electricity effectiveness against ground types.
At this point, we'd probably have to say that electricity has some sort of explosive properties- which makes sense somewhat, when you consider how a lightning bolt works in real life. Still, the level of electricity it's producing would have to be pretty ridiculously high, which is why I suggest using Bide.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:36 am

2.) We could also assume Pika used Thundershock to blast the rocks away and send them flying at Rhyhorn. Just sayin.

=

It's electro rock throw.

-->

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot agree with you on this one.

. . . ?

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:56 am

Maybe you guys should stick with Pikachu shocks Onix's horn, and then explode Onix's body all over. Like Rhydon's horn, it's always the weak point.

I do agree with The Black Glove:
Electro Rock Throw. True that electric attacks go through Rock Pokemon, but I doubt using Pikachu's thundershock to hurl the rock back at Onix won't work. Onix is both Rock and Ground, and Ground types take low damage from Rock Pokemon.

Hey, The Black Glove, maybe you should put some notes just in case the audience starts asking questions.

As for Misty's Gyarados, don't forget she gets it back, but will give Red Gyarados for Red's Krabby. Gyarados was abducted by Team Rocket, and I do believe the word you're looking for about Gyarados in a big tank might be called an "Aquarium". Blaine releases the Gyarados since Misty arrives, and then that Gyarados runs off as a wild Pokemon again.

It fits!
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:42 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:Maybe you guys should stick with Pikachu shocks Onix's horn, and then explode Onix's body all over. Like Rhydon's horn, it's always the weak point.
Which is the problem we are trying to avoid- The fans hated that about the original anime, and it's something I hate too. Not to mention, in the FRLG chapter, Green takes advantage of Rhyhorn's Lightningrod ability (though it's horn) to prevent Pika's attacks from working. Even in the anime, Brock's Onix is unaffected by electric attacks.

I do agree with The Black Glove:
Electro Rock Throw. True that electric attacks go through Rock Pokemon, but I doubt using Pikachu's thundershock to hurl the rock back at Onix won't work. Onix is both Rock and Ground, and Ground types take low damage from Rock Pokemon.
The reason it wouldn't work is because Pika's Thundershock is a thread of high-voltage electricity that jumps from its cheeks to a target, and then through the target. There is nothing to suggest that an electric attack would be able to hurl rocks or cause an explosion. There's no combustion reaction involved. It just hurts to have thousands of volts pumping through your body.

Hey, The Black Glove, maybe you should put some notes just in case the audience starts asking questions.
I'd rather not have any questions like this to have to answer in the first place.

As for Misty's Gyarados, don't forget she gets it back, but will give Red Gyarados for Red's Krabby. Gyarados was abducted by Team Rocket, and I do believe the word you're looking for about Gyarados in a big tank might be called an "Aquarium".
I'm sorry, but what was it that suggested that I didn't know that? There is nothing in this thread suggesting I was unaware.

Blaine releases the Gyarados since Misty arrives, and then that Gyarados runs off as a wild Pokemon again. It fits!
Yes, which is one of my points on how it works that has been repeated to the death. I suggested it would be more dramatic and include some foreshadowing for the Team Rocket members, seeing as how we've only seen them once, and we don't really get introduced to Koga when he appears.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:50 am

The Black Glove wrote:
Which is the problem we are trying to avoid- The fans hated that about the original anime, and it's something I hate too. Not to mention, in the FRLG chapter, Green takes advantage of Rhyhorn's Lightningrod ability (though it's horn) to prevent Pika's attacks from working. Even in the anime, Brock's Onix is unaffected by electric attacks.

*Thinks* Hmm. You do have a point. During Generation I, it's only ground types that become immune. And In Generation III, Rhyhorn's Lightning Ability did appear to have electric type attacks hit only Rhyhorn, and that does nothing. The lightning attack only hits around the body, not the horn. I need to have a look at the manga book.

*Looks at book* Hmm. The book shows Pikachu charges electricity, and then charges at Onix when Onix is charging at both Pikachu and Red. And then Pikachu releases the attack when Onix wasn't looking or paying attention. Did Pikachu somehow collide with Onix, and then release the attack, or just blinded Onix with Flash, and then strike the attack?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:07 pm

If Onix is rushing Red and Pika head-on, it's going to be paying attention to it's target. That's why my suggestion of using Flash works; If Onix's eyes are trained solely on Pika, then the Flash that illuminates from it's body is going to be guaranteed to hit. Pika then uses it's smaller body and higher speed to move out of the way, and Onix loses by ring-out.

Also, if you read the Red Vs Green fight in the FRLG Arc, the electricity gathers specifically into Rhydon's Horn- its supposed weak point. That's part of the reason for all my alternate suggestions.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:29 pm

So, the Flash blinds Onix, and it either hits the small ring spots, or bounces around the ring like a blind mole digging underground. Okay. That should work.

And as for Misty's Gyarados, I do believe the topic is supposed to show how did Gyarados end up as a wild Pokemon again, and Red catches it. Blaine experiments, but feels guilty and sets it free to become a wild Pokemon again.

Now you have the plots for both Pikachu beating Onix, and Red captures Misty's Gyarados. Black Glove, it is to say, you are a genius. I hope by chance if the PokeSpeAni reaches to Episode 5: I wanna do my best impression of Onix and Graveler.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:52 pm

Hold it. We still haven't covered the topic of how Misty knew where Gyarados was. If Blaine just let Gyarados go free, there would have been a lot of commotion about a crazed Gyarados, and Team Rocket and other trainers probably would have shown up. Having Misty alone makes no sense. There's also the fact that Blaine was there during the Mew Capture story, and he didn't leave Team Rocket until after the creation of Mewtwo.

This is why I suggested having Blaine, Giovanni, or some other high-ranking Rocket in the area to drop it off. Misty hears something about Team Rocket being active in the area, she goes to investigate alone, hoping to find a lead to her stolen Gyarados, and she runs into Blaine/Giovanni, who forces her to fight her own beloved Pokemon. The Rocket then retreats, explaining why Red does not see Giovanni/Blaine until later. Not having the will to fight what is likely her strongest Pokemon, Misty is thrashed until Red comes along.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:29 pm

What are you talking about? Misty explained the whole situation about her Gyarados. It was stolen by Team Rocket, and then it re-appeared to her some time later, so she tracked it down alone.
See these pages:
http://jb2448.info/Pokemon_Adventures_01/pokemonadventures_006/PA1_Chapter_Six08
http://jb2448.info/Pokemon_Adventures_01/pokemonadventures_006/PA1_Chapter_Six09

She's all alone because it's rampaging in the wild fields, not in an area with lots of people, and anyone who did see it would've ran away anyways. Team Rocket wouldn't be around either, because one of their traits about how they treat Pokemon is that they pay no mind whatsoever about what happens to the Pokemon they capture and release, so they have no reason to be around it either. They let it go in the wild and forgot about it, simple as that. No use expanding filler scenes to it, when it's not a key plot point. In fact, it would even be contradictory to the story if she searched the area because she heard about or saw Team Rocket members there, since she's supposed to not have a clue about them too, which is why Red and Misty talk to Professor Oak to find out about them.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:05 pm

The Black Glove wrote:
Hold it. We still haven't covered the topic of how Misty knew where Gyarados was. If Blaine just let Gyarados go free, there would have been a lot of commotion about a crazed Gyarados, and Team Rocket and other trainers probably would have shown up. Having Misty alone makes no sense. There's also the fact that Blaine was there during the Mew Capture story, and he didn't leave Team Rocket until after the creation of Mewtwo.

This is why I suggested having Blaine, Giovanni, or some other high-ranking Rocket in the area to drop it off. Misty hears something about Team Rocket being active in the area, she goes to investigate alone, hoping to find a lead to her stolen Gyarados, and she runs into Blaine/Giovanni, who forces her to fight her own beloved Pokemon. The Rocket then retreats, explaining why Red does not see Giovanni/Blaine until later. Not having the will to fight what is likely her strongest Pokemon, Misty is thrashed until Red comes along.

Oh. Right. My Apologizes. If Gyarados was released, then Gyarados would have wreck the town the town. Maybe you should have Gyarados carried in one spot, and have Giovanni (in a shadow) to see if Misty can try and take her Gyarados back. I don't know if Misty did meet Blaine for the first time, but it's hard to go in a specific timeline.

Nol wrote:
What are you talking about? Misty explained the whole situation about her Gyarados. It was stolen by Team Rocket, and then it re-appeared to her some time later, so she tracked it down alone.

So you're saying Gyarados just appeared in front of Misty some time while? I'm guessing Misty went off on her own to find Gyarados, and then found it later. How long does it take to have Gyarados become examine and then released out?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:48 pm

(concerning onyx) Anyone have issues with: Pika KOs Onix with electric attack -- electricity magnetises chunks of iron in Onix's segments --> segments repel one another so Onix is blown apart --> Onix is unable to battle/KOd by the blasting and subsequent collision --> Red and Pika win --- OR --- electricity causes superheating of pockets of air (or similar) in Onix's body --> rapid expansion = explosions --> Onix is blown apart blah blah blah. In either case I would not be inclined to explain the reasoning within the episode, simply because it would be tedious and detract from the episode in general.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:So you're saying Gyarados just appeared in front of Misty some time while?

She pretty much says so herself. It returned to her, but it wasn't kind anymore, and instead went on a rampage. After that, she just followed its path of destruction, which lead to the battle she was having that Red came across.

How long does it take to have Gyarados become examine and then released out?

A week, apparently.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:41 pm

Actually, nova, that's a pretty good explanation! (but I remember the second one...was it already presented?)

I like your first example! It's simple, and makes enough sense to work! Although I can't say I agree with your descision not to explain anything (I agree it would be tedious and detract from the pacing of the episode), but maybe some kind of semblance of an acknowledgement to this fact could occur. (even if rushed, otherwise fans wouldn't agree with the theory, and say we made it up afterwards, because it wasn't in the actual episode)

but those are my thoughts on that. Honestly, you guys have thought of some really strong solutions to the plotholes of the manga, and that's really great!
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:45 pm

Supernova wrote:
(concerning onyx) Anyone have issues with: Pika KOs Onix with electric attack -- electricity magnetises chunks of iron in Onix's segments --> segments repel one another so Onix is blown apart --> Onix is unable to battle/KOd by the blasting and subsequent collision --> Red and Pika win --- OR --- electricity causes superheating of pockets of air (or similar) in Onix's body --> rapid expansion = explosions --> Onix is blown apart blah blah blah. In either case I would not be inclined to explain the reasoning within the episode, simply because it would be tedious and detract from the episode in general.

*Stops Supernova* No! No. We're good. We're covered. We're going with Pikachu blinds Onix, and Onix goes nuts crashing each edge ring, and then out of the ring for a total KO. Right? *Turns at The Black Glove*

Nol wrote:
She pretty much says so herself. It returned to her, but it wasn't kind anymore, and instead went on a rampage. After that, she just followed its path of destruction, which lead to the battle she was having that Red came across.

A week, apparently.

*Thinks* Hmm. So the big Atrocious changes skin, except from Team Rocket (Trying to make a metaphor. Sorry if its bad)

Then the option is Team Rocket captures the Gyarados, Misty tracks down her Gyarados for a week, Team Rocket experiments with Blaine and Giovanni, and Giovanni puts Gyarados out of nowhere in front of Misty. Perhaps a roar could be added as a zing, or not.

Is this clear?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:33 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:We're going with Pikachu blinds Onix, and Onix goes nuts crashing each edge ring, and then out of the ring for a total KO. Right? *Turns at The Black Glove*

While I did say that I felt that certain things could be changed to fix some of the more glaring plotholes, I still do believe that we should keep in line with canon somehow. (so even though this solution is definitely viable, I think we should stick to canon in a way)

Because onix was defeated by the electricity, I think we should try to retain that in a way. I believe nova's worked well (and the ring out does seem kind of complicated...after all, isn't there a large crowd of people in the audience? I'm not sure they could avoid a giant falling onix).

But of course, this is all my opinion. (what can I say? I'm kind of a purist) If other people disagree, then I'll be fine with it. But I think that we should keep other options open for now! ^^
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:55 am

That scene where Onix is KOd by Pikachu's attack is one of the best moments of RGB. I'm really not inclined to change it.

Concerning explanation, we could throw a little omake-type thingy on the end of the episode rather than have it in the episode proper.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:58 pm

Nol wrote:What are you talking about? Misty explained the whole situation about her Gyarados. It was stolen by Team Rocket, and then it re-appeared to her some time later, so she tracked it down alone.
See these pages: --Links went here--
I will admit that I missed these parts. Thanks for bringing them up. However, I still see flaws in your argument.

She's all alone because it's rampaging in the wild fields, not in an area with lots of people, and anyone who did see it would've ran away anyways.
In the text, Red and Misty both quote "Gyarados is a water Pokemon, and it's not supposed to live in places like this....". Recall the much later Red Gyarados Incident in Johto. As soon as it appeared, there was news EVERYWHERE that a powerful Pokemon had appeared in a place it wasn't supposed to. A Pokemon going on a RAMPAGE would be HUGE, especially a Gyarados in an area where they are not native.

Team Rocket wouldn't be around either, because one of their traits about how they treat Pokemon is that they pay no mind whatsoever about what happens to the Pokemon they capture and release, so they have no reason to be around it either.
Misty says her Gyarados was gone for a week. In that time, it is known that Team Rocket experimented on it, and then one of 2 possible things occurred:

1.) Gyarados escaped on its own, and went on a rampage. Considering that flashbacks reveal that Gyarados was being tested on in the Celadon City Hideout, and said building is still intact, this is unlikely, as a GYARADOS escapes by blowing everything the f*** up. In Celadon City, the 2nd biggest (and often considered capital) city of Kanto. See where I'm going with this? It then travels to the western side of Mt. Moon, where Misty just happens to be, and engages in battle with the one person who ever gave it positive reinforcement. Misty fails to fight it until Red arrives.

2.) Gyarados was taken to Cerulean City via Pokeball by the same Rocket Grunt who stole it in the first place. Misty recognizes him, and gives chase to a more secluded area. He smirks, then releases Gyarados, who hasn't been free to move in a week. In it's fear and confusion, it thrashes around, then flees with Misty still giving chase. She finally manages to engage it in battle, but both being unable to hurt her own Pokemon and Gyarados being arguably her most powerful Pokemon, she fails until Red arrives.

They let it go in the wild and forgot about it, simple as that.
Misty claims her Pokemon "came back" in the text. This implies that when it returned, it would have been where Misty was most likely to be, yes? The location in question? Cerulean City, what I estimate to be the 4th biggest city in the Kanto Region. This is a GYARADOS on a RAMPAGE.

Not to mention the fact that if what sets Gyarados off is the appearance of Team Rocket (as is revealed during the Muk fight), so why is Gyarados going wild? Because a Team Rocket Member or someone who experimented on him was present, of course.

No use expanding filler scenes to it, when it's not a key plot point. In fact, it would even be contradictory to the story if she searched the area because she heard about or saw Team Rocket members there, since she's supposed to not have a clue about them too, which is why Red and Misty talk to Professor Oak to find out about them.
Firstly, Gyarados is the first of the Pokemon experimented on by Team Rocket (that we see). This incident is the KEY behind all of Gyarados' character development and motivations. It also connects other prominent characters to it; Misty, Red, Vee, Blaine, and by extension, Giovanni (who likely would have had Gyarados released to try and rid himself of the Cerulean Gym Leader, thereby eliminating a threat to his plans).

Secondly, just because Misty has seen the Team Rocket Grunts before doesn't mean she knows who they are. Red encountered them before as well, and it's likely Green did the same, but it's not until Oak, a very smart man with a lot of connections, reveals what the red 'R' stands for, does the information get around. Only Erika seems to know who they are before Red arrives, and by that point, it's likely Oak/Misty spread the word to the other Gym Leaders, thus beginning the subplot of the Good Vs Bad Gym Leaders that would come to a climax in the assault on Saffron City.

Red_the_knight wrote:Oh. Right. My Apologizes. If Gyarados was released, then Gyarados would have wreck the town the town. Maybe you should have Gyarados carried in one spot, and have Giovanni (in a shadow) to see if Misty can try and take her Gyarados back. I don't know if Misty did meet Blaine for the first time, but it's hard to go in a specific timeline.
Even if it isn't Giovanni, having Team Rocket be present for this event, and then leave before Red arrives is important to this event. It's the reason Gyarados could reach that area, the reason it went berserk, and the reason Gyarados was stolen and experimented on in the first place.

Mrtweetums wrote:I like your first example! It's simple, and makes enough sense to work! Although I can't say I agree with your descision not to explain anything (I agree it would be tedious and detract from the pacing of the episode), but maybe some kind of semblance of an acknowledgement to this fact could occur. (even if rushed, otherwise fans wouldn't agree with the theory, and say we made it up afterwards, because it wasn't in the actual episode)

but those are my thoughts on that. Honestly, you guys have thought of some really strong solutions to the plotholes of the manga, and that's really great!
Thanks, but I feel inclined to disagree with you. My reasons below.

Red_the_knight wrote:
Supernova wrote:
(concerning onyx) Anyone have issues with: Pika KOs Onix with electric attack -- electricity magnetises chunks of iron in Onix's segments --> segments repel one another so Onix is blown apart --> Onix is unable to battle/KOd by the blasting and subsequent collision --> Red and Pika win --- OR --- electricity causes superheating of pockets of air (or similar) in Onix's body --> rapid expansion = explosions --> Onix is blown apart blah blah blah. In either case I would not be inclined to explain the reasoning within the episode, simply because it would be tedious and detract from the episode in general.

*Stops Supernova* No! No. We're good. We're covered. We're going with Pikachu blinds Onix, and Onix goes nuts crashing each edge ring, and then out of the ring for a total KO. Right? *Turns at The Black Glove*
@Supernova: Onix does not HAVE chunks of iron in it's body, hence why a Steel Coat is needed for evolution. Onix is a rock, and presumably does not HAVE pockets of air in it's body. Even if it did, electricity as wild as a thundershock would not be able to superheat it, and without a source of fuel, there would be no such explosion.

@Red_the_knight: Actually, I just had Onix miss entirely, since Onix likely won't bounce, and since it touches the ground outside the ring, it's a ring-out victory for Red: the only other time such a thing came close in the series was when Green's Machamp sent Lax hurtling into the sky in the big finale.

*Thinks* Hmm. So the big Atrocious changes skin, except from Team Rocket (Trying to make a metaphor. Sorry if its bad)

Then the option is Team Rocket captures the Gyarados, Misty tracks down her Gyarados for a week, Team Rocket experiments with Blaine and Giovanni, and Giovanni puts Gyarados out of nowhere in front of Misty. Perhaps a roar could be added as a zing, or not.
Essentially, this is the plot of my thoughts.

Mrtweetums wrote:Because onix was defeated by the electricity, I think we should try to retain that in a way. I believe nova's worked well (and the ring out does seem kind of complicated...after all, isn't there a large crowd of people in the audience? I'm not sure they could avoid a giant falling onix).
Note that such a thing is usually taken into account when building such rings. And the fact that a lot of moves used in these particular rings include razor sharp leaves, fire, high-pressured water blasts, electricity, and falling boulders. I think there'd be some distance between the ring and the seats.

Supernova wrote:That scene where Onix is KOd by Pikachu's attack is one of the best moments of RGB. I'm really not inclined to change it.
Concerning explanation, we could throw a little omake-type thingy on the end of the episode rather than have it in the episode proper.
I rather disliked the moment, personally. Darn Ground-Types. It all falls on the scripters. If they decide this stuff gets in the plot.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am

In the text, Red and Misty both quote "Gyarados is a water Pokemon, and it's not supposed to live in places like this....". Recall the much later Red Gyarados Incident in Johto. As soon as it appeared, there was news EVERYWHERE that a powerful Pokemon had appeared in a place it wasn't supposed to. A Pokemon going on a RAMPAGE would be HUGE, especially a Gyarados in an area where they are not native.

I don't see what part of that implies that other people would be around there with Misty. If there was big news about it, that area would probably even be cleared out for safety reasons. Misty, being the Gym Leader of the city, would take responsibility and make sure that no one else was around, just like she was trying to shoo Red away.

Considering that flashbacks reveal that Gyarados was being tested on in the Celadon City Hideout

Celadon City was for performing DNA splicing and biopsies on Pokemon that were already experimented on, so Gyara might've escaped after the initial experimental stage, but also might have never made it to Celadon for further gene manipulation like what was done to Vee.

Misty recognizes him, and gives chase to a more secluded area. He smirks, then releases Gyarados, who hasn't been free to move in a week. In it's fear and confusion, it thrashes around, then flees with Misty still giving chase. She finally manages to engage it in battle, but both being unable to hurt her own Pokemon and Gyarados being arguably her most powerful Pokemon, she fails until Red arrives.

Pure fanfiction. I find it really unlikely that Misty would've seen a Rocket actually let loose her Gyarados right in front of her, otherwise she would've said that. At the very least, she would've mentioned an important detail like that when explaining her story to Red instead of saying "Gyarados just reappeared". Not only that, but if she actually saw the perpetrator at all, then she would've had a much different (violent) reaction when seeing the Rockets at Mt. Moon. Instead, she acts as if she's never seen them before.

Misty claims her Pokemon "came back" in the text. This implies that when it returned, it would have been where Misty was most likely to be, yes? The location in question? Cerulean City, what I estimate to be the 4th biggest city in the Kanto Region. This is a GYARADOS on a RAMPAGE.

What does the city have to do with anything when I was talking about the Rockets being the ones forgetting all about the Gyarados they experimented on? They couldn't care less about what happens to the citizens of Cerulean.

Not to mention the fact that if what sets Gyarados off is the appearance of Team Rocket (as is revealed during the Muk fight), so why is Gyarados going wild? Because a Team Rocket Member or someone who experimented on him was present, of course.

Just because Team Rocket's appearance triggered the trauma again for Gyara at the Seafoam Islands, doesn't mean that his initial outrage was due to Rocket members being around. His rampage near Mt. Moon might've happened from the built-up rage and fear from being experimented on, and then him escaping or being released into the wild, but that doesn't mean there were Rocket members present for when he went berserk when Misty chased after him.

And really, I don't see the point in showing a Rocket appearing just to send out Gyarados and run away. Just visualise the scene for a moment: The Rocket wasn't attacking Misty, so there's no purpose for him appearing before her. Then, Misty gets preoccupied with Gyarados and lets the Rocket get away, so the Rocket's screentime is cut short when he already only does one thing. It would just be a pointless scene that detracts from the tension and action already in the original scene, where we start off with an injured Misty facing off against a beastly Gyarados. Adding an intro to that would hurt the atmosphere and pace of the scene.

Giovanni (who likely would have had Gyarados released to try and rid himself of the Cerulean Gym Leader, thereby eliminating a threat to his plans)

Neither Giovanni nor Blaine have any business being there in person. Not only that, but there would've been much better ways of eliminating Misty, such as using his own Pokemon directly, or sending out experimented Pokemon that were already trained instead of a Pokemon that Misty had connections to and might've had a chance at dissuading.

I should also mention that Gyarados didn't even attack Misty to begin with. Misty was the one that had to go to Gyarados and confront it since it was wildly going off on its own. Doesn't seem like a plan to eliminate Misty to me if Misty had to bring the danger to herself. Not to mention that Koga and the Rockets at Mt. Moon didn't seem to care about Misty that much, so that's evidence that the Rockets didn't have any agenda with the Gym Leader.

Not only that, but Team Rocket's scheme is all about secrecy, being incognito. Why ruin that by directly confronting a Gym Leader and causing a ruckus? They only go for elimination as a last resort when they're already found out. Seems like Gyarados showing up at all was unintentional to me, with even more evidence from Koga's attitude of not keeping track of the Pokemon they captured and messed up.

Secondly, just because Misty has seen the Team Rocket Grunts before doesn't mean she knows who they are.

But she hadn't seen the Rocket Grunts before. She needed Red around to confirm that the grunts in front of Mt. Moon were Rockets, because she had no idea what a Rocket member looked like.

having Team Rocket be present for this event, and then leave before Red arrives is important to this event. It's the reason Gyarados could reach that area, the reason it went berserk, and the reason Gyarados was stolen and experimented on in the first place.

All those things are your personal conclusions of how Gyarados got there and why it acted that way. Being able to come up with your own ways of filling in the gaps is a good thing, but that's the beauty of having gaps in a story, because each individual viewer can use their imagination to bridge those gaps. If we were to add a scene like that, then we're forcing the audience to think a certain way, when the scene works even without your interpretations and explanations.

I'm all for fixing up contradictions and illogical events (like Pika somehow shocking Ground-types of all sorts, from Brock's Onix to Giovanni's team), but I don't see any reason to add expansions to scenes like Gyarados's introduction, especially since your idea creates more contradictions with the scenes that immediately follow.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:40 am

The Black Glove wrote:
Red_the_knight wrote:
Supernova wrote:
(concerning onyx) Anyone have issues with: Pika KOs Onix with electric attack -- electricity magnetises chunks of iron in Onix's segments --> segments repel one another so Onix is blown apart --> Onix is unable to battle/KOd by the blasting and subsequent collision --> Red and Pika win --- OR --- electricity causes superheating of pockets of air (or similar) in Onix's body --> rapid expansion = explosions --> Onix is blown apart blah blah blah. In either case I would not be inclined to explain the reasoning within the episode, simply because it would be tedious and detract from the episode in general.

*Stops Supernova* No! No. We're good. We're covered. We're going with Pikachu blinds Onix, and Onix goes nuts crashing each edge ring, and then out of the ring for a total KO. Right? *Turns at The Black Glove*
@Supernova: Onix does not HAVE chunks of iron in it's body, hence why a Steel Coat is needed for evolution. Onix is a rock, and presumably does not HAVE pockets of air in it's body. Even if it did, electricity as wild as a thundershock would not be able to superheat it, and without a source of fuel, there would be no such explosion.

Metal Coat. Also, those are assumptions you've just made. Steelix's PLatinum and BW descriptions say 'It is thought its body transformed as a result of iron accumulating internally from swallowing soil', while others imply it gets compressed to be harder than metal. So . . . an Onix can surely have 'some' iron before having 'a lot of' iron.

I don't see why it can't have pockets of air within it. And electricity coursing through anything with resistivity (e.g. Onix's body) would cause heat. Anything heated expands, rapid expansion = explosion (e.g. a geyser).

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:08 pm

Hey, let's not hurt our brains around here. This is getting too long. Let's make a vote. The options that work best for Chapters 5 & 6 will go in air until Chapters 1, 2, 3, & 4 are done. This is getting way too much for two chapters to try and make things easier.

For Pika VS Onix, the options are:
#1) Pikachu uses Flash to blind Onix, and then causes a ring out
#2) Zaps the horn
#3) Shocks Onix when both Pikachu and Onix are in the air
#4) In order Order somehow
#5) Other

For Red captures Misty's Gyarados
#1) Start of Chapter 6 Gyarados fights Misty only, explanation later
#2) Misty's Gyarados got stolen, experimented and turned into a wild Pokemon
(a) escapes by the front or back door, and then appears in front of Misty
(b) Giovanni releases it out in shadow, and has Gyarados fight Might
(c) Blaine releases it out, and Gyarados appears in front of Misty
(d) Creates an exit itself, and shows up in front Misty

I'm out of options. Shall we vote?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

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