Red catch Misty Gyarados

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:14 pm

Voting won't solve anything. We need to debate this out and come to a conclusion.

Nol, I will admit that in most of these cases, you are correct. I'm simply writing fanfiction here. I just feel like there's more backstory to Gyarados that could be explained. Which should probably be done in a fanfic. XD Maybe I should think a bit more, but I can't help but want to tell the story from my perspective. XD

However, there is one point I cannot agree on.

Secondly, just because Misty has seen the Team Rocket Grunts before doesn't mean she knows who they are.
But she hadn't seen the Rocket Grunts before. She needed Red around to confirm that the grunts in front of Mt. Moon were Rockets, because she had no idea what a Rocket member looked like.
She only asks that because even if she's heard of Team Rocket from Oak, and seen Team Rocket herself, she has never had it confirmed that the two are one and the same. For all she knows, Team Rocket could be an entirely different group. Besides, it's mostly there to remind the reader (or in our case, the viewer) what Team Rocket is between chapters (episodes).

Anyways, I still think my idea could work. We start with Misty standing there, finally cornering the Grunt against a river. He smirks, and drops a Pokeball in the water, releasing her stolen Gyarados (which, since she may not have seen the Pokeball, "Just appeared"), he runs off, it roars as a "Zing" line, and then we cut to the opening. When we cut back, Misty is battered and bruised.

Metal Coat. Also, those are assumptions you've just made. Steelix's PLatinum and BW descriptions say 'It is thought its body transformed as a result of iron accumulating internally from swallowing soil', while others imply it gets compressed to be harder than metal. So . . . an Onix can surely have 'some' iron before having 'a lot of' iron.
Steel, Metal, Tomato, Tomato. (It works better if you say it out loud).

Even if this was the case, I have 2 strong counter arguments. First of all, Onix is part ground type, which means the iron would have a ground to diffuse the electricity. If simply being magnetized worked, then Steelix would be weak to electric attacks (which it ISN'T). Secondly, if it did manage to surpass the ground, Wouldn't that be more likely to only push Onix's segments apart, rather than it bursting? And how does that stop the forward momentum from Onix's Skull Bash? If anything, the metal in Onix's head (supposedly) would repulse from the metal parts (supposedly), and propel it forward with even MORE force. The force KO's Pika, injures Red (who is standing behind it), and Brock wins in the case of a tie because he's the Gym Leader.
I don't see why it can't have pockets of air within it. And electricity coursing through anything with resistivity (e.g. Onix's body) would cause heat. Anything heated expands, rapid expansion = explosion (e.g. a geyser).
Are you proposing this as to why Fire attacks would work on Onix as well? In that case Onix must be the least powerful Pokemon in the world, seeing as how it's losing to the only types it's supposed to resist. Shall I debunk this one too?

Onix is a rock. There ARE no pockets of air in it. Also, if there were, the heated air would go to where there is little resistance- away from the giant serpent made of rocks. As a result, Onix might feel some heat and a gust of wind, but that would ultimately not deter it. And certainly not stop the skull bash, and again, a gust of air is more likely to propel Onix forward. I point out that Geyers are not so much combustion as they are simply hot water rushing to the point of least resistance. For an explosion, you need fuel. Last I checked, rocks do not explode, and if they did, rock types would not be resistant to heat.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:58 am

"An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner" -- mechanical exlosions don't necessarily involve fuel (e.g., the popping of a balloon). Also, an earth wire can overheat. And rocks can have pockets of air

Regardless, IT'S POKÉMON, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE PHYSICAL SENSE! Rawr. Green's Scyther can slash ghost types just from sheer awesomeness (Chuck's training), like a free foresight. So we can bend the rules and make Pikachu able to damage Onix.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:25 am

She only asks that because even if she's heard of Team Rocket from Oak, and seen Team Rocket herself, she has never had it confirmed that the two are one and the same. For all she knows, Team Rocket could be an entirely different group.

First of all, if she recognized them, she would at least have mentioned that she's seen them before to confirm that they were the thieves, but she didn't. She makes absolutely no mention of having seen them before, and even after meeting them she doesn't show any signs of having a previous encounter with them, so I'm not seeing where the ideas of her having met a Rocket before is coming from.

Like, if she had seen them before, there would have been much more urgency for her to try to find or keep track of them, rather than let them get away while she hunted down Gyarados. She would've tried to subdue and capture the Rockets first before going after Gyarados, or send out a Pokemon or two to chase after the Rockets while she takes the rest of her team to take out Gyarados. Having any scene where she encounters Team Rocket beforehand makes the situation illogical in my point of view.

We start with Misty standing there, finally cornering the Grunt against a river.

She has no knowledge of what Team Rocket is, so why would she be chasing down a grunt in the first place? And Team Rocket wouldn't have initiated an assault or provoked Misty either, since they're trying to avoid detection from her.

And by the end of all that, the scene would just showcase a minor character (the Rocket grunt) that serves no further purpose, which makes the scene pointless. I don't think we have any business expanding on the background of the scenario, particularly since it's not necessary and doesn't contribute to the development of anything, really. It would just be more effort to animate, which requires expending more time, with a result that doesn't seem worth it and also makes Misty's following actions seem illogical.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:41 am

The Black Glove wrote:
Voting won't solve anything. We need to debate this out and come to a conclusion.

Okay. Debate. I'm getting bored for not doing anything in the art.


She only asks that because even if she's heard of Team Rocket from Oak, and seen Team Rocket herself, she has never had it confirmed that the two are one and the same. For all she knows, Team Rocket could be an entirely different group. Besides, it's mostly there to remind the reader (or in our case, the viewer) what Team Rocket is between chapters (episodes).

Anyways, I still think my idea could work. We start with Misty standing there, finally cornering the Grunt against a river. He smirks, and drops a Pokeball in the water, releasing her stolen Gyarados (which, since she may not have seen the Pokeball, "Just appeared"), he runs off, it roars as a "Zing" line, and then we cut to the opening. When we cut back, Misty is battered and bruised.

I get it. So Misty's Poke Ball (with Gyarados) must have been snatched when she wasn't looking. Grunts can't be Ninjas, but I'm guessing Misty must have placed Gyarados in some kind of locker or placed in the wrong spot just to be in the wrong hands.

If Misty's Poke Ball, with Gyarados, was released Gyarados freely to a wild Pokemon, then that means he caused Gyarados to go on a rampage as a wild Pokemon.
They say that setting a Pokemon free makes a Pokemon become wild again. It makes sense now.

If I were to guess, Misty must have placed Gyarados somewhere secret while she's out training or gone to do something. Then Team Rocket broke in without a single scratch and snatched Gyarados (in a Poke Ball), and left without a trace. Misty returns and finds her Gyarados missing. Perhaps a note left or not. She tracks down her Gyarados for one week, but no evidence is in her sight.
Meanwhile in Team Rocket Hideout, Blaine experiments on Misty's Gyardaos. Blaine felt a little guilty, so Blaine puts the Gyarados back into the Poke Ball, and left to meet with Giovanni. Blaine/Giovanni take the Poke Ball to a river, and drops the ball with a single button to have Gyarados released as a wild Pokemon.
Misty continues to search with, until with a single roar, Gyarados appears. Misty fights Gyarados with her Staryu, and both Misty and Staryu become beaten and bruised. Finally, Red appears.

We have our story! I don't what to say, Black Glove, but you are quite the detective. Maybe you can do both Chapters 5 and 6.


Are you proposing this as to why Fire attacks would work on Onix as well? In that case Onix must be the least powerful Pokemon in the world, seeing as how it's losing to the only types it's supposed to resist. Shall I debunk this one too?

I know that fire doesn't work well against Rock, but the way I saw a Charmeleon, Onix is screwed in a few seconds. It must have took about two-to-three hits to KO an Onix with a Flamethrower. Green trained Charmander very well.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:43 pm

Regardless, IT'S POKÉMON, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE PHYSICAL SENSE! Rawr. Green's Scyther can slash ghost types just from sheer awesomeness (Chuck's training), like a free foresight. So we can bend the rules and make Pikachu able to damage Onix.
First of all, Scyther can learn moves that effect Ghost Types that use it's claws. It's entirely possible that Green simply used an incomplete form of Night Slash, which is super effective against Ghosts. This makes sense since everything he hits with it is one-shotted. In Pikachu's case, electric attacks don't hurt ground types. That is one of the most simple rules of the Pokemon World, but the one most often broken for a Deus Ex Machina. I still prefer the idea of the electricity making a bright flash that blinds Onix, and having it's momentum carry it out of the ring, rather than just saying "Ah, what the heck" and letting Pika OHKO Onix.

Nol wrote:
She only asks that because even if she's heard of Team Rocket from Oak, and seen Team Rocket herself, she has never had it confirmed that the two are one and the same. For all she knows, Team Rocket could be an entirely different group.
First of all, if she recognized them, she would at least have mentioned that she's seen them before to confirm that they were the thieves, but she didn't. She makes absolutely no mention of having seen them before, and even after meeting them she doesn't show any signs of having a previous encounter with them, so I'm not seeing where the ideas of her having met a Rocket before is coming from.
According to how I told the story, Misty would have seen ONE Rocket Grunt, and considering he spends most of the time running away from her while she chases, she may not have gotten a good look at his front, where the symbolic "R" is. Like I said before- just because she's seen one doesn't mean she's recognized him as a member of Team Rocket.
Like, if she had seen them before, there would have been much more urgency for her to try to find or keep track of them, rather than let them get away while she hunted down Gyarados. She would've tried to subdue and capture the Rockets first before going after Gyarados, or send out a Pokemon or two to chase after the Rockets while she takes the rest of her team to take out Gyarados. Having any scene where she encounters Team Rocket beforehand makes the situation illogical in my point of view.
Remember what she told Red? How can she go looking for someone whom she doesn't know where it is? I'm sure she was searching like mad, but seeing as how she's responsible for that area, Misty would have stayed in Cerulean. She sends out an APB on a missing Gyarados, and begins to lose hope after a week, but then she sees a Team Rocket Grunt out in that area. Her emotions overwhelm her sense of duty, and she gives chase. Giovanni has cleverly set this up behind the scenes, as he figures the Gym Leader will not be able to fight her own Pokemon. He has the Grunt lure her out far from Cerulean to a secluded area, so she cannot receive reinforcements, and so there will be no witnesses to the attack, keeping with the Team Rocket style of doing everything stealthily until they are exposed. She finally corners him, he lets out a Gyarados that she recognizes as her own, and then he runs off, leaving her to fight, and according to Giovanni's plan, die. Heck, considering Koga's Team was at Mt. Moon, the grunt may have joined up with them there. Heck, if not for the fact that Misty would recognize him outright, I would claim KOGA was the one who lead her out there.

This effectively eliminates one of the 3 remaining good Gym Leaders (until Blaine has a change of heart later), leaving the side of the Good Gym Leaders in a panic, as well as weakened from the loss of one of the leaders. If they're still in mourning over the loss of Misty from a thief (whom nobody else got a good look at), they aren't likely to come after Team Rocket while they research and prepare to go after their main objective, the Legendary Birds and Mew. That's right. Red's appearance in this moment may have stopped Team Rocket from winning right here.

Or at least, that's my theory on it.

Oh, one final note: When they run into Koga, Red exclaims "You are Team Rocket!", and from this, we can infer that neither he, nor Misty, had confirmed the people they were chasing were Team Rocket until Koga outright admits it on the same page.

We start with Misty standing there, finally cornering the Grunt against a river.

She has no knowledge of what Team Rocket is, so why would she be chasing down a grunt in the first place? And Team Rocket wouldn't have initiated an assault or provoked Misty either, since they're trying to avoid detection from her.
With the exception of Gyarados, Team Rocket only tested on wild Pokemon (that we saw). It's not unthinkable that they wanted to try comparing the results on a wild Pokemon to those of a trained Pokemon. What's the best example of a trained Pokemon? Those owned by Gym Leaders. So they provoked Misty by stealing Gyarados. Giovanni has the grunt purposely lure Misty off because Giovanni recognized that he could use this chance to kill Misty discreetly, thereby weakening the other side.

And by the end of all that, the scene would just showcase a minor character (the Rocket grunt) that serves no further purpose, which makes the scene pointless. I don't think we have any business expanding on the background of the scenario, particularly since it's not necessary and doesn't contribute to the development of anything, really. It would just be more effort to animate, which requires expending more time, with a result that doesn't seem worth it and also makes Misty's following actions seem illogical.
This falls under the same thing as my Brock Plothole thoughts (see the thread for those). While the full story isn't shown, it's there. We wouldn't HAVE to show the events of Gyarados being stolen. My suggestion for how to show the scene is enough to get the point across.

Red_the_knight wrote:If Misty's Poke Ball, with Gyarados, was released Gyarados freely to a wild Pokemon, then that means he caused Gyarados to go on a rampage as a wild Pokemon. They say that setting a Pokemon free makes a Pokemon become wild again. It makes sense now.
True, but the reason it attacked her was because of Team Rocket. Even wild Pokemon retain their memories, so if he was merely released, he would have no reason to attack his beloved trainer who never caused him harm.

We have our story! I don't what to say, Black Glove, but you are quite the detective. Maybe you can do both Chapters 5 and 6.
Don't get me confused. I'm not a detective, I'm a storyteller, and this is how I think the story should be told.

I know that fire doesn't work well against Rock, but the way I saw a Charmeleon, Onix is screwed in a few seconds. It must have took about two-to-three hits to KO an Onix with a Flamethrower. Green trained Charmander very well.
That's just it. Ground is resistant to fire, not immune like it is to Electricity. It's feasible that Green simply leveled his Charmeleon and overwhelmed Brock with sheer firepower (he is the Raiser, after all), but even if Pika started at level 100 and was using Megavolt, Ground Types don't take damage from electric attacks. Maybe Gen 6 will change that, and give Pika a move or ability that allows it to zap Ground Types, but for now, it simply cannot happen.

Anyways, thanks everyone, for debating against me. It helps me to refine my points and make them stronger.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:33 pm

but then she sees a Team Rocket Grunt out in that area. Her emotions overwhelm her sense of duty, and she gives chase.

And I ask again, the reason for her randomly chasing a Rocket Grunt is..?

Giovanni has cleverly set this up behind the scenes, as he figures the Gym Leader will not be able to fight her own Pokemon. He has the Grunt lure her out far from Cerulean to a secluded area, so she cannot receive reinforcements, and so there will be no witnesses to the attack, keeping with the Team Rocket style of doing everything stealthily until they are exposed.

In a previous post I've already explained why that plan doesn't hold up, because there are much more effective ways to eliminate her, and they wouldn't even try to kill her anyway because that would be big news and cause suspicion in the public. The last thing they want is their actions to provoke others going after them, which is what the death of a person--especially a Gym Leader--would cause.

They didn't go after the Gym Leaders that didn't even know of them, they tried to keep themselves relatively under the radar of any threats, to maintain their operations smoothly without the interference of authorities involved.

Heck, if not for the fact that Misty would recognize him outright, I would claim KOGA was the one who lead her out there.

And I say this again, Misty made no indication of having seen those guys before. Not only that, but Koga and the rest of the grunts seemed to not know who she was either. If Koga was trying to kill her before, then Koga would at least be surprised or enraged that she was still alive, but all he saw was a total stranger. The Rockets didn't care who she was at all, so they obviously weren't out to get her earlier or anything, they just wanted to get a Moon Stone quickly. She made the first strike on them, not the other way around.

So they provoked Misty by stealing Gyarados.

Which is the last thing they want to do. They don't want to provoke anyone.

Giovanni has the grunt purposely lure Misty off because Giovanni recognized that he could use this chance to kill Misty discreetly, thereby weakening the other side.

But Misty wasn't even on the "other side" at that point, she was neutral because she was ignorant about Team Rocket. All that plan would do is provoke opposition, whether by killing Misty (cause for alarm in the public and start investigations), or by screwing up and having her survive the attack (making her an enemy). There would have been no victory to be had if Giovanni planned it, it seems like the whole Gyarados thing was unintentional.

Not to mention that if anyone was going to be sent to kill Misty, it would've been Lt. Surge.

My suggestion for how to show the scene is enough to get the point across.

The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.

According to how I told the story... I'm a storyteller, and this is how I think the story should be told.

This is the biggest problem I have here. It's not your story, it's Kusaka's. If you want to personally believe that there was some elaborate scheme by Giovanni to eliminate Misty or whatever, then go ahead and think that, but I don't see any reason to tweak the scenes for our production and make the rest of the fans and audience to think the same way. There are plenty of reasons to not think that your scenario is how it happened, and making things just go your way would probably upset viewers that don't agree with your interpretation of the plot.



That's just it. Ground/Rock typing is resistant to fire, not immune like it is to Electricity. It's feasible that Green simply leveled his Charmeleon and overwhelmed Brock with sheer firepower (he is the Raiser, after all)

Yeah, it's not just about types, it's about stats too. Onix has low Special Defense, and Charmeleon has a very strong Special move in Flamethrower. If you go by in-game mechanics and take a LV16 Charmeleon vs a LV14 Onix (the level that's used in the games for that fight), two Flamethrower attacks will take out Onix, or just one if it's a Critical Hit. If you want to get into newer mechanics, Blaze will also make it a one-shot win, or there would be the Metal Claw attack available as well.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 pm

Rules exist to be bent or broken in the creative world. I'm leaving it at that with the Pika vs Onix plothole, unless a significant number of people are opposed (to me).

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:18 am

Supernova wrote:
Rules exist to be bent or broken in the creative world. I'm leaving it at that with the Pika vs Onix plothole, unless a significant number of people are opposed (to me).

Uh, you do that. And I'm not opposing, just trying to make the scenario clear and no longer confusing for the audience to be suck on the subject.

The Black Glove wrote:
True, but the reason it attacked her was because of Team Rocket. Even wild Pokemon retain their memories, so if he was merely released, he would have no reason to attack his beloved trainer who never caused him harm.

So, you're saying that it may be a wild Pokemon, but it still has its memories from its owner. But if it was released as a wild Pokemon again, then Gyarados can't attack Misty. It wants to go back.
And Team Rocket did this to have Gyarados attack Misty. That's a serious case of event to have Misty explain why Gyarados didn't remember Misty, because Team Rocket experimented Gyarados with either a severe amnesia or some kind of machine to zap Gyarados into a rampaging wild Pokemon again.


That's just it. Ground is resistant to fire, not immune like it is to Electricity. It's feasible that Green simply leveled his Charmeleon and overwhelmed Brock with sheer firepower (he is the Raiser, after all), but even if Pika started at level 100 and was using Megavolt, Ground Types don't take damage from electric attacks. Maybe Gen 6 will change that, and give Pika a move or ability that allows it to zap Ground Types, but for now, it simply cannot happen.

Actually, it's Rock that is resistance to fire, not ground. Ground takes normal damage. I think Onix would have LV 10-12 to KOed in two shots. And yes I agree on this, Green is a true Trainer to raise Pokemon.
But this got my curious: Pikachu zaps Onix, causing Onix's bodies to go everywhere, but Pikachu shocked Onix somewhere other than the horn. It didn't look like Pikachu shock the horn, it was charging electricity and then blast the attack on Onix's head somewhere. Did Pikachu managed to shock Onix when Onix's mouth was open, or not. I don't even have the slightest answer.

Nol wrote:
The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.

So, you want Misty to encounter a grunt before Gyarados appears? Of course though that Misty does mention Team Rocket when she was facing Red in her gym.


Yeah, it's not just about types, it's about stats too. Onix has low Special Defense, and Charmeleon has a very strong Special move in Flamethrower. If you go by in-game mechanics and take a LV16 Charmeleon vs a LV14 Onix (the level that's used in the games for that fight), two Flamethrower attacks will take out Onix, or just one if it's a Critical Hit. If you want to get into newer mechanics, Blaze will also make it a one-shot win, or there would be the Metal Claw attack available as well.

Wasn't Onix a LV 10-12? True about the stats. Onix would be a one hit KO from a water attack, and since it's Special is low, Charmeleon would finish the job with just two Flamethrower, or a one hit Critical Hit. Make a scene when Green calls Charmeleon to release one more Flamethrower, and then Onix goes down. Brock is in a shadow figure look in the background.

Everyone, let's be in each others throats. Let's just get this debate done so that way I can get back to drawing on the clips, and then finally know what to do in Chapter 5 and 6. I'm bored of doing nothing, and we don't have a complete scene and answer on how Pikachu can shock Onix down to zero, and how Red was able to catch Misty's Gyarados even though its hers. (And You don't have to remind me, I got this)
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:03 pm

Incidentally, Pikachu appears to dodge Onix's attack before striking.

And Green's battle shown isn't necessarily against Brock. I have some ideas about that Wink

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Memieko on Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:20 am

Honestly, if I was able to keep up with this right. Why don't we just follow the story. In all reality Lighting should affect ground more since in physics, lightning always aims to hit ground. It will never hit something that fails to touch the ground. Such as a bird in flight. That's why birds sitting on telephone wires never get shocked because that's where they're safest. So really the whole idea of Electric < Ground and Electric > Flying is messed up in the science world. So might as well just continue with the normal storyline instead of trying to change it to make sense when nothing in pokemon makes much sense anyway.

Also, I'm back form an unnoticed leave. I've been having it rough but I should finish my assignments today.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Blackmagebard on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:08 pm

... This could all be explained by having a short segment of darkness after the credits just having Brock's eventual VA saying "... HAX!" -End Video-

I doubt we can come up with a solution that will please EVERYONE.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Memieko on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:13 pm

The only way we can actually have a non-opinionated reason is by explaining "that's what happened in the manga" Not "well that's just what majority wanted us to do"

I'd, personally, rather be true to the story than what a majority wants. It gives us a better reason to make the story the way it is. We'd have less of an argument to change it and explain to people why we did it if we choose to change it based on a few people's opinions. There shouldn't even be a vote on this. If we're going to try staying close to the original art style then we should try to stay close to the story. We're keeping everything else original, names, sounds, style, and scripts. We shouldn't change this either.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:20 am

Memieko wrote:might as well just continue with the normal storyline instead of trying to change it to make sense when nothing in pokemon makes much sense anyway.

Memieko wrote:
I'd, personally, rather be true to the story than what a majority wants. It gives us a better reason to make the story the way it is. We'd have less of an argument to change it and explain to people why we did it if we choose to change it based on a few people's opinions. There shouldn't even be a vote on this. If we're going to try staying close to the original art style then we should try to stay close to the story. We're keeping everything else original, names, sounds, style, and scripts. We shouldn't change this either.

This.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Nol wrote:
but then she sees a Team Rocket Grunt out in that area. Her emotions overwhelm her sense of duty, and she gives chase.
And I ask again, the reason for her randomly chasing a Rocket Grunt is..?
And I say again, Misty doesn't recognize this person as a Rocket Grunt, she recognizes him as the thief who stole her Gyarados. The fact that he runs from her? Pretty suspicious. Wouldn't you chase someone if you believed they were the thief?

In a previous post I've already explained why that plan doesn't hold up, because there are much more effective ways to eliminate her, and they wouldn't even try to kill her anyway because that would be big news and cause suspicion in the public. The last thing they want is their actions to provoke others going after them, which is what the death of a person--especially a Gym Leader--would cause.
Yes, more effective, but this way, they remove the evidence of who did it. Think about it: Misty chases an unknown figure across Kanto. She ends up in an area most trainers don't pass through, and is forced to fight Gyarados, her strongest Pokemon. If Red hadn't come along, Misty would likely have lost, and been killed by Gyarados. When someone finally does show up, assuming Misty hasn't been eaten (Yes, Pokemon would be willing to eat humans. Remember Victreebel?), there's going to be a corpse with wounds that could be identified as someone killed by a Gyarados. While Gyarados are not normally found in the area, we knew one was missing, and could have ended up in this area, or could have been under the control of any trainer who owns a Gyarados (while hard to train, Gyarados is still a popular choice). They effectively lose the trail, a gym leader, and there's a rampaging Gyarados on the loose to keep the Gym Leaders busy; said Pokemon has type advantages over the other 2 Gym leaders, and is the most powerful Pokemon of a Gym Leader, so it may end up getting lucky and offing another. Nobody could chase them because there's nobody to blame. The chaos could have set up a number of opportunities for Team Rocket to attack, and sweep the region.

Feel free to call this Wild Mass Guessing, but this is what I think.

They didn't go after the Gym Leaders that didn't even know of them, they tried to keep themselves relatively under the radar of any threats, to maintain their operations smoothly without the interference of authorities involved.
Giovanni is not a dumb villain. THEREFORE, he is going to take notice of the biggest threats, part of the reason he's interested in Red in the first place. Therefore, he likely had several plans to take care of the Gym Leaders, but Team Rocket was unable to enact them before the Battle of Saffron City. Either that, or Giovanni just figured that once he'd beaten Red, he'd be able to sweep the leaders easy, seeing as how he'd have the guy who 'beat' all 4 of them on his side. (Red never beat Erika, and technically only beat Blaine by beating the Pokemon Blaine could not defeat, Moltres.)

And I say this again, Misty made no indication of having seen those guys before. Not only that, but Koga and the rest of the grunts seemed to not know who she was either. If Koga was trying to kill her before, then Koga would at least be surprised or enraged that she was still alive, but all he saw was a total stranger. The Rockets didn't care who she was at all, so they obviously weren't out to get her earlier or anything, they just wanted to get a Moon Stone quickly. She made the first strike on them, not the other way around.
I already said that the evidence proves it wasn't Koga. Also, that first sentence makes me wonder if you are paying attention to the argument: that was my claim, not yours, unless you are suddenly changing your argument to agree with me.

So they provoked Misty by stealing Gyarados.
Which is the last thing they want to do. They don't want to provoke anyone.
Which is why they stole all those Pokemon in Vermilion City, endangered Viridian Forest, and took over Saffron City, setting up a massive psychic barrier around it. That didn't draw any attention at all. And need I mention all the times they had large groups running around with in full uniform in broad daylight?

But Misty wasn't even on the "other side" at that point, she was neutral because she was ignorant about Team Rocket. All that plan would do is provoke opposition, whether by killing Misty (cause for alarm in the public and start investigations), or by screwing up and having her survive the attack (making her an enemy). There would have been no victory to be had if Giovanni planned it, it seems like the whole Gyarados thing was unintentional.
Giovanni (and myself) know that Misty is a Gym Leader, whose duties include protecting the people of Kanto. That's not to say she couldn't be converted like the three Giovanni had, but none of the remaining Gym Leaders have the ambition to rule Kanto, and when we meet Erika, whether Misty told her or not, she outright OPPOSED them. It's better to make a preemptive strike with a dead-end trail and have a chance at eliminating one of your opponent's most powerful warriors, or to have her survive, but suffer no real losses (as they were done with Gyarados anyways). From what I can see, this is brilliant planning.

As to your argument that they'd be notified of Team Rocket's existence, Oak proves that the knowledge was already there by telling Red and Misty about them. Sure, Misty's survival proves as a link, but like you said, there was no solid proof that Team Rocket did anything, only Misty's eyewitness testimony. Also, just knowing "Team Rocket did it" won't solve the problem if you can't FIND Team Rocket. Red running into the Rockets later was coincidence, and he just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Not to mention that if anyone was going to be sent to kill Misty, it would've been Lt. Surge.
I can see your argument, as Surge had the type advantage, but he was busy in Vermilion City with the Pokemon stealing scheme. Besides, this gave them a chance to get rid of that troublesome Gyarados, and having Lt. Surge on the scene would cause more commotion if someone came along than just a "wild" Gyarados.

The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.
Oh no. We never dive into character development for Rocket Grunt #32... what a shame. Isn't the fact that his appearance would be the main thing inspiring Red and Misty to start searching for information in the first place?

This is the biggest problem I have here. It's not your story, it's Kusaka's. If you want to personally believe that there was some elaborate scheme by Giovanni to eliminate Misty or whatever, then go ahead and think that, but I don't see any reason to tweak the scenes for our production and make the rest of the fans and audience to think the same way. There are plenty of reasons to not think that your scenario is how it happened, and making things just go your way would probably upset viewers that don't agree with your interpretation of the plot.
I never claimed it was my story. If it was mine, I would have told it that way, and there would be loads of other changes to the series that I cannot list here, due to the character limit. This is a fan-based anime, BASED ON the story by Kusaka, but there's no problem with telling it slightly differently. I haven't removed a single line, scene, or plot point with my suggestions, and instead, delved into what could be a deeper explanation than "it just showed up and I happened to be there".

Besides, you're missing the main point. THIS. IS. A. SUGGESTION. I'm currently only listed as on the script team because I'm writing the scripts for the Special Show. It's the team working on the actual show who gets to decide what to put in there, not me. This is only my viewpoint on the matter of discussion, not something I believe to be set in stone. If the Script team has a problem, don't use the suggestion. Simple as that.

And Team Rocket did this to have Gyarados attack Misty. That's a serious case of event to have Misty explain why Gyarados didn't remember Misty, because Team Rocket experimented Gyarados with either a severe amnesia or some kind of machine to zap Gyarados into a rampaging wild Pokemon again.
As it's said, Gyarados was TRAUMATIZED by Team Rocket, which is why Team Rocket caused it to go berserk, like it does again when they fight Muk. It's not that it doesn't remember Misty, it's more of the fact that it's berserk, and it's not really caring about who it hurts as a result. Later, when it calms down, she uses it in Cerulean City to attack Red in his bedroom, proving that Gyarados still trusts her.

Nol wrote:
The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.
See above response to the same point. If you're really that insistent, we could make it an early-bird cameo for one of the later Rocket Admins.

So, you want Misty to encounter a grunt before Gyarados appears? Of course though that Misty does mention Team Rocket when she was facing Red in her gym.
Consider the timeline here. They weren't at Misty's Gym until after the Mt. Moon incident, so of course she knows about Team Rocket by then. Remember the facts before making arguments, please.

Everyone, let's be in each others throats. Let's just get this debate done so that way I can get back to drawing on the clips, and then finally know what to do in Chapter 5 and 6. I'm bored of doing nothing, and we don't have a complete scene and answer on how Pikachu can shock Onix down to zero, and how Red was able to catch Misty's Gyarados even though its hers. (And You don't have to remind me, I got this)
It's not a matter of how, it's a matter of "if". There have been several suggestions for both issues, it's just up to the script team to decide what's in and what's out. I still think it would be better to have Pika use Flash, making Onix the first (and only) Pokemon in the series to lose by ring-out, but it's the script team's call.

Supernova wrote:Incidentally, Pikachu appears to dodge Onix's attack before striking.
And Green's battle shown isn't necessarily against Brock. I have some ideas about that Wink
Actually, there isn't a trainer, or even an opposing Pokemon shown. It's just Green being smug with his Charmeleon. Write away. =)

Memieko wrote:Honestly, if I was able to keep up with this right. Why don't we just follow the story. In all reality Lighting should affect ground more since in physics, lightning always aims to hit ground. It will never hit something that fails to touch the ground. Such as a bird in flight. That's why birds sitting on telephone wires never get shocked because that's where they're safest. So really the whole idea of Electric < Ground and Electric > Flying is messed up in the science world. So might as well just continue with the normal storyline instead of trying to change it to make sense when nothing in pokemon makes much sense anyway.
Tell this argument to the fans who hate the "aim for the horn!" line. It makes more sense for us to use the Pokemon World's rules anyways, and they state that electrical attacks do not affect Ground Types.

Blackmagebard wrote:I doubt we can come up with a solution that will please EVERYONE.
Indeed. There will always be someone dissatisfied with something. I'm just saying we should come up with something that will please more people, rather than all.

Memieko wrote:The only way we can actually have a non-opinionated reason is by explaining "that's what happened in the manga" Not "well that's just what majority wanted us to do"
So? If it's not what they want, they should voice it. That's what suggestions are all about, yes?

I'd, personally, rather be true to the story than what a majority wants. It gives us a better reason to make the story the way it is. We'd have less of an argument to change it and explain to people why we did it if we choose to change it based on a few people's opinions. There shouldn't even be a vote on this. If we're going to try staying close to the original art style then we should try to stay close to the story. We're keeping everything else original, names, sounds, style, and scripts. We shouldn't change this either.
So you'd rather get all the complaints of people saying how Electric attacks don't affect Ground Types? Besides, how Pika beats Onix changes nothing about the character development it receives in this chapter, and the only real changes to the script would be Red coming up with the idea and then carrying it out, likely with Brock realizing the strategy shortly afterward. We follow the rules of the Pokemon world, the fans are happy, and the story is unaffected.

I can understand that you want to stick to the original, I do. But there's so much wasted potential if you don't! Adapting something like this means you're telling it a different way, and while we should indeed follow the plot, there's nothing wrong with expanding upon the story so long as what is crucial is not changed. I'm not suggesting to add or remove characters or plot points, I'm saying to add to the story what the original writer couldn't or didn't. We have the advantage of seeing what created the loopholes, so let's abuse that!
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:35 pm


The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.
Oh no. We never dive into character development for Rocket Grunt #32... what a shame. Isn't the fact that his appearance would be the main thing inspiring Red and Misty to start searching for information in the first place?
Character development and plot are different things. Also, that they go to train and then bump into Team Rocket has a nicer feel to it that investigating Team Rocket presence in Mt Moon.



I'd, personally, rather be true to the story than what a majority wants. It gives us a better reason to make the story the way it is. We'd have less of an argument to change it and explain to people why we did it if we choose to change it based on a few people's opinions. There shouldn't even be a vote on this. If we're going to try staying close to the original art style then we should try to stay close to the story. We're keeping everything else original, names, sounds, style, and scripts. We shouldn't change this either.
So you'd rather get all the complaints of people saying how Electric attacks don't affect Ground Types?
I would Smile

I can understand that you want to stick to the original, I do. But there's so much wasted potential if you don't! Adapting something like this means you're telling it a different way, and while we should indeed follow the plot, there's nothing wrong with expanding upon the story so long as what is crucial is not changed. I'm not suggesting to add or remove characters or plot points, I'm saying to add to the story what the original writer couldn't or didn't. We have the advantage of seeing what created the loopholes, so let's abuse that!
I'm all for adding bits and expanding on the themes already present, but not filling in plotholes just because we can. Fans are fans and will moan about things, but fans moan about a lot of things and that doesn't make it worth altering (just look at a Naruto forum :p).

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:02 pm

Supernova wrote:

The scene works fine--if not better--without any wedged in scene of Misty encountering a grunt before the battle, because having the grunt escaping just leaves a loose plot thread since it's not really addressed later.
Oh no. We never dive into character development for Rocket Grunt #32... what a shame. Isn't the fact that his appearance would be the main thing inspiring Red and Misty to start searching for information in the first place?
Character development and plot are different things. Also, that they go to train and then bump into Team Rocket has a nicer feel to it that investigating Team Rocket presence in Mt Moon.
Except searching for information about Team Rocket is exactly what they do: http://www.mangareader.net/458-28204-13/pokemon-adventures/chapter-6.html

My point stands firm.

I'm all for adding bits and expanding on the themes already present, but not filling in plotholes just because we can. Fans are fans and will moan about things, but fans moan about a lot of things and that doesn't make it worth altering (just look at a Naruto forum :p).
Naruto fanboys/girls, my natural enemy! Quickly! Flee while I hold them off! Gum....Gum....

Can we at least agree that we don't agree? This debate will go on forever if we let it, and it's not our decision to make anyways. I'd like to suggest we leave it to the writers, and leave this debate here as a suggestion- the reason it's in this forum to begin with.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Memieko on Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:12 am

My only argument is that the comic defies so many things that were a physical law in the game and we have made changes based on what "makes sense" well how the heck does a Poke-ball know if a pokemon has been caught? It's not like they're electronic and become virtually registered to that trainer. The setting is too urban for that and too much is mostly biological. I know we've been trying to be more like the video games, but video games lose some grip of reality too. This is how it was written originally, it should not be changed and we'd tick off a lot of people if we did. (Lot of people prefer originality)

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:30 am

The Black Glove wrote:and it's not our decision to make anyways.

It's not YOUR decision to make. It is mine.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Memieko on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:21 am

Oh, I didn't even know it was up to only you, I was worried we were going to drag this discussion out forever.l -.-" Sorry for continuing it Nova.

Edit: @BlackGlove: Sorry I saw that you addressed me in your long post on the page before this. You know how many times thing in pokemon don't make sense? Ash used the "Aim for the Horn" that's probably one of the few things thats scientifically correct. Ground isn't affected because of the outer layer, but if you strike it with electricity on the inside it should affect it. Like Nova said, it's up to him, if you keep saying it's not up to us then stop posting already and let the judge decide. There's no point in making changes when we've already changed it so that the Pokemon make animal noises which is what is original about the manga. Yes, it does seem 'right' and this does not, but it isn't a physical law in the real world and a pokeball just a pokeball. Pokemon shouldn't be just registered to one pokeball, how else would Team Rocket be able to capture and keep pokemon they steal from trainers when the pokemon aren't in their pokeballs. It would be impossible. As my conclusion, if we change this might as well change how Team Rocket works as well. I'm not doing this for the sake of orginality but as quoted from a movie, "If you want to make a good remake don't mess(in nicer terms) with the original" I'm done posting now. Any other reply I'd prefer arguing on PM, not here.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:39 pm

Supernova wrote:
The Black Glove wrote:and it's not our decision to make anyways.
It's not YOUR decision to make. It is mine.
So you alone get to decide? Seems like a cheap deal for the other two working on the main script.

Regardless, my point is that it is a suggestion. If you're going to ignore it anyways, why have you bothered debating the whole thing?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Tsurugi on Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:03 am

Okay, Firstly: Hi, I'm new here Smile
Secondly: I'll have to agree with Memieko and keep the whole Onix VS Pika battle ending unchanged. I mean, the way this is going, it's getting slightly out of hand. We've all heard the phrase "some things just can't be explained" right? It's the writing team's choice, but maybe (just maybe), you could incorporate that phrase into the script? Here's how I'd think the scene would go:

(scene follows the manga with Onix breaking apart ,the crowd gasping in disbelief)
Brock:(falls to his knees) It ... It can't be ...(chuckles).. I guess some things, you just can't explain.

And that's my view of it. Like I said, their choice if they use it not. I hope this helps someway or another. Neutral

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:00 pm

Sheesh! All the way up to page 7, and still arguing. I do believe this has been gone far. I would love to agree to all the staff and their argument, but this is too much. Besides, you're making me lost on what to do in Chapter 5 & 6

@Tsurugi, welcome to forums. Sorry if this going long, but it's too much to handle by not ripping of the ideas the Anime pulled.

If this keep up, we're never going to even do Chapter 5 & 6. Are we going to debate, or keep arguing?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:11 pm

While I do think debates like this should be settled through ideas and discussion, I'm kinda sensing an air of dissonance around this.

But because people hold different viewpoints on this side of things (eg. if we should try to fix plotholes or leave it to the original's intent), a discussion like this could go on for quite some time.

Maybe you guys could hold a meeting, or some kind of vote on this topic, just to get everything sorted out once and for all? But if you guys still feel that discussion is still needed, then go for it! Just remember, we have to reach some solid conclusions on this (because this topic has been going on for quite some time).

I can relate to both sides, and their respective intents, but let's not get things to heated, 'kay?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Supernova on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:30 am

Tsurugi wrote:

(scene follows the manga with Onix breaking apart ,the crowd gasping in disbelief)
Brock:(falls to his knees) It ... It can't be ...(chuckles).. I guess some things, you just can't explain.

We're so doing that! Thank you Smile

disclaimer: we might not.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Tsurugi on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:47 am

You're welcome Nova-san Very Happy . it's OK if it doesn't come to light, just thought I'd throw the idea out there to try and settle the dispute

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