Brock Plotholes

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Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sat May 21, 2011 4:36 pm

I noticed that Brock is a complete FAILURE when it comes to protecting his town. I can understand during the Yellow Arc when Pewter City is under attack by the Elite Four, and he's the only (supposedly) competent trainer in the town, but let's consider the RGB Arc for a moment, shall we?

VS Onix. In this chapter, the Pewter City Pokemon Center is caught on fire and burns down before Red arrives. As a result, Red can't heal his Pokemon before he fights Brock, and Pika is the only one at full health. It makes for a great excuse to force Pika to fight, but it makes you wonder what caused it to burn down. Team Rocket, perhaps? Just some ill luck with some electrical appliances? Did a Charizard sneeze?

Perhaps it was the Magmar from a much later chapter, whom Red defeats with Giovanni watching. What were they doing at the time? BURNING DOWN THE PEWTER CITY MUSEUM. Where was Brock when both buildings were burning? He was in town for the Gym Battle, so where was he during the fires?

This is a huge plothole, and to be totally honest, it really makes Brock look either incompetent or uncaring about his town. Can we at least drop a few subtle hints about something that could help his reputation? I already have an idea.

The Magmar from the VS Magmar chapter were chasing a trainer. The trainer, fleeing them, ran into the Pokemon Center. The Magmar attacked the center, causing the building to go up in smoke. The fleeing trainer falls to the ground, and the Magmar approach. The trainer is scared, and he clutches his injured Pokemon (let's make it a Sandshrew to be ironic), and as they get close, we see Brock step in. Starting from the ground, we pan up to his face, and he makes a declaration that he's going to beat the Magmar. From there, we go to the opening, and when we come back, Red arrives at the burned down center. During Red's battles in the Gym, we have some scenes where it's revealed that Brock was helping set up an emergency Pokemon Center to care for the Pokemon until the Center gets rebuilt. Brock and Red have their battle, and Brock tells Red about it, allowing him to heal Poli and Saur, and when the healing is done, Pika and Red have that final scene together.

In Vs Magmar, after Red and Giovanni leave, Brock comes back from (I dunno. Training/Digging out the tunnel in Mt. Moon/searching for the Magmar) to find the Museum in ruins, but also covered in sand, as well as the remains of the 2 Magmar that Giovanni killed. He guesses from the wreckage that it was the work of the Viridian Gym Leader, and get a worried look on his face, but is snapped out of it when he is asked to help clean up the remnants of the building.

This way, Brock looks a little more caring/competent, and he gets as much screentime as the other 2 gym leaders do (when he previously only had 2 episodes to Erika and Misty's 3 each).

Thoughts?
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Guest on Sat May 21, 2011 7:24 pm

You seem to know what you're talking about.
Audition for the script team, I think you'll be good at it.

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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sat May 21, 2011 9:28 pm

I would, but it would appear that applications for said team are closed. Instead I'm working on Voice acting, unless the scripting team suddenly has a vacancy.

Back on topic, please.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Sun May 22, 2011 9:14 am

._.'' Well, to be honest, I didn't think that the burning stuff down was that much of a sully on Brock's competence, I just thought it was unfortunate. Both of them were surprise attacks, and it's not like Brock could help much with the fire, being a master of Rock-types. Besides, who knows, it could have been INTENTIONAL. We can't assume that Hidemori Kusaka didn't think of this, however unlikely.

But as for scripting, if you PM SuperNova with an audition piece in hand, you can be considered if you like. As you seem to be chock full of nice ideas there. But as discussed in previous threads, we don't think we can go through every little error or Fridge Logic or lack of modernism in the manga compared to today. It would be great as fans to show we care for perfection, but this manga was made over a decade ago.

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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sun May 22, 2011 11:15 am

Kazaazz wrote:Both of them were surprise attacks, and it's not like Brock could help much with the fire, being a master of Rock-types. Besides, who knows, it could have been INTENTIONAL. We can't assume that Hidemori Kusaka didn't think of this, however unlikely.
Well, judging by the fact that the fires are not explained and Brock is not present for them, I think it's safe to assume he didn't. Evidence supports it anyways.

And as for the argument of him being a Rock Master, and thereby being unable to help, may I point out that Rock-types are strong against fire, as well as resistant to it? I can see all sorts of ways he could have helped out. Not to mention, all of his Pokemon are also part ground-type. This gives them even more defenses and offenses against the fire. Even in the Anime, Brock contributes to putting out the Celadon City Gym by having Geodude pour dirt on the roof to smother the flames.

Even if this wasn't the case, there are many cases of where people without any Pokemon help considerably. The whole of Celadon city joined up with Brock, Misty, and Erika in the surrounding of Saffron's Gates during the Team Rocket Takeover. Brock being a master of Pokemon, and a Leader within the town, would have been likely to at least come running, especially to protect something as important as a Pokemon Center.

But as for scripting, if you PM SuperNova with an audition piece in hand, you can be considered if you like. As you seem to be chock full of nice ideas there. But as discussed in previous threads, we don't think we can go through every little error or Fridge Logic or lack of modernism in the manga compared to today. It would be great as fans to show we care for perfection, but this manga was made over a decade ago.

Orly? (opens up Microsoft word)

I can't perfect everything. I realize that. I can, however, make sense of some of it. For example, I'm not gonna sit down and figure out why Saur doesn't evolve until the Saffron arc, despite being more than high enough level for it, or why Charizard, Blasty and Saur can overcome 3 Legendaries and KO them in one attack. Some stuff is best left for drama, but if something seems weird or needs to be explained, we should fix it in a way that makes sense with the plot.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Sun May 22, 2011 2:57 pm

The Black Glove wrote:Well, judging by the fact that the fires are not explained and Brock is not present for them, I think it's safe to assume he didn't. Evidence supports it anyways.

Okay...what evidence? Don't just state evidence is there but explaining where it is. Doesn't really make a good argument. Anyway, I may not completely remember the details so I may be wrong, but the fires are explained as arson by Team Rocket in order to influence Red's journey I believe, as stated by Giovanni in their battle. As for Brock, well, just because he wasn't shown doesn't mean he wasn't helping. Camera angles, panel space and all that. We can easily show a few shots of him helping put out the fire for the Museum at least, because the one on the Center was in the night and obviously I don't think he could cancel the gym matches (even if just for the sake of the plot). He may have helped during the night anyway when it was up in flames. Red probably just slept through it XD.

Either way the main focus of my argument is not to detract too much from the manga. We don't need to put that much in to tell everyone that Brock hasn't forgotten his town. So, especially when Red finding out the Center is destroyed is meant to be a plot twist of sorts, all we need is perhaps brief flashes and contemplation as Brock watches his challengers fight, thinking back to the center's state. Just images of the burning Center and an anguished expression from Brock is enough; we don't really need a whole subplot.


And as for the argument of him being a Rock Master, and thereby being unable to help, may I point out that Rock-types are strong against fire, as well as resistant to it? I can see all sorts of ways he could have helped out. Not to mention, all of his Pokemon are also part ground-type. This gives them even more defenses and offenses against the fire. Even in the Anime, Brock contributes to putting out the Celadon City Gym by having Geodude pour dirt on the roof to smother the flames.

Even if this wasn't the case, there are many cases of where people without any Pokemon help considerably. The whole of Celadon city joined up with Brock, Misty, and Erika in the surrounding of Saffron's Gates during the Team Rocket Takeover. Brock being a master of Pokemon, and a Leader within the town, would have been likely to at least come running, especially to protect something as important as a Pokemon Center.

Okay, you got me with the type argument I suppose. Except that ground isn't resitive to fire even if it's strong against it. (sorry for being picky)


I can't perfect everything. I realize that. I can, however, make sense of some of it. For example, I'm not gonna sit down and figure out why Saur doesn't evolve until the Saffron arc, despite being more than high enough level for it, or why Charizard, Blasty and Saur can overcome 3 Legendaries and KO them in one attack. Some stuff is best left for drama, but if something seems weird or needs to be explained, we should fix it in a way that makes sense with the plot.

I have three words for that.

THIS IS ANIME.

<3
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sun May 22, 2011 3:47 pm

Kazaazz wrote:
The Black Glove wrote:Well, judging by the fact that the fires are not explained and Brock is not present for them, I think it's safe to assume he didn't. Evidence supports it anyways.

Okay...what evidence? Don't just state evidence is there but explaining where it is. Doesn't really make a good argument. Anyway, I may not completely remember the details so I may be wrong, but the fires are explained as arson by Team Rocket in order to influence Red's journey I believe, as stated by Giovanni in their battle.
After reading your argument, I went and looked it up. Giovanni stated he thought that Red's victories were just a fluke, until after awhile, Red brought down his main base in Saffron City, and he hadn't paid much mind to him until then. Therefore, the evidence supports that Team Rocket did not start that fire.

I know your first counter-argument to that will be the sign outside the Pokemon Center which reads the following: "Yesterday, our center was damaged (read: destroyed) by unknown vandals. We will reopen when our machines are running again. We apologize for any inconvience this has caused." From this, we know that the damage was caused a day in advance, and that nobody saw who the vandals (read: terrorists) were. However, let's assume that the trainer who was attacked by the Magmar was walking through the Viridian Forest, and came across Team Rocket. Seeing as how Blaine was a part of Team Rocket at the time, it is likely that they had fire pokemon whom they had experimented with, and may have been using as guards. Magmar notices the trainer, they lock eyes, and the chase begins. Yes, vandals are responsible, but since all anyone saw was the Pokemon, the vandals are unknown.

Giovanni also says, after Red traps the Magmar, that Magmar are very vengeful. Assuming this, we can believe that they chased a trainer to the Pokemon Center, and burnt it down trying to attack him/her. That's when Brock, being the most powerful trainer in the town, would likely be informed, and step in to help. Brock defeats the Magmar, causing them to retreat, but since as Giovanni said, Magmar are very vengeful, they build up their power over time, and come back to wreak havoc on the town. Since they can't find Brock, they take revenge in the best way they know how- burning all his stuff. This is when Red shows up and defeats them. Brock, being the Gym Leader, and as a result, chained to the town, would eventually return to find the Museum gone, and, since the Gym Leaders likely know about Giovanni, as he was once one of them, Brock would recognize the sand from Sandshrew's ground-type attacks, and the dead Magmar as Giovanni's handiwork.

Also, I did state the evidence. Brock is a Gym Leader. He has power. This makes him the equivalent of the Town's Law Enforcement. If s*** is going down in his town, people are going to tell him about it. If that isn't enough, consider the fact that when a building catches fire, it sends up a smoke cloud. Red wouldn't be able to see it because he was in Viridian Forest, and the trees would have blocked his view of the sky. Sure, we could assume he was on Route 2 ( the section north of the forest), but since the building was cooled off, people were just starting to rebuild, and there was a sign made that SAYS IT WAS YESTERDAY, we can assume it's been at least a day since the fire, and even if Giovanni was targeting Red, there's no way he could have know Red was there unless he saw it happen. Since Red hadn't left the forest yet, Giovanni would only know Red was to the south, and would have no reason to attack the Pokemon Center.

How's that for evidence?

As for Brock, well, just because he wasn't shown doesn't mean he wasn't helping. Camera angles, panel space and all that. We can easily show a few shots of him helping put out the fire for the Museum at least, because the one on the Center was in the night and obviously I don't think he could cancel the gym matches (even if just for the sake of the plot). He may have helped during the night anyway when it was up in flames. Red probably just slept through it XD.

If Brock was there at the Museum fire, he would have noticed Red, who likely would have drawn a lot of attention to himself between being a hero in Saffron City, as well as someone who beat the town's Gym Leader, not to mention the fact that he's the one fighting the Magmar (which should be Brock's job). Who was standing by Red during that fight? It isn't Cinderella. Brock, being a Gym Leader himself, would instantly recognize Giovanni for who he is- an ungodly powerful Gym Leader, who has been missing for years, and probably try to say something. Not to mention, if anyone would have been fighting the Onix when Red arrived, it would have been Brock. It makes more sense for him to have been out of town, and it helps keep Giovanni's identity a mystery to Red until they face each other in the final battle, making the reveal all the more dramatic.

Either way the main focus of my argument is not to detract too much from the manga. We don't need to put that much in to tell everyone that Brock hasn't forgotten his town. So, especially when Red finding out the Center is destroyed is meant to be a plot twist of sorts, all we need is perhaps brief flashes and contemplation as Brock watches his challengers fight, thinking back to the center's state. Just images of the burning Center and an anguished expression from Brock is enough; we don't really need a whole subplot.

Brock has the least characterization/backstory of the Gym Leaders. I'd like it if we can at least flesh him out a bit with this. VS Onix is kinda his big chapter, but all we seem to see of him is that he's a tough guy who wants to fight a strong opponent. This also describes Red, Green, Lt. Surge, Bruno, etc. Besides, this isn't a subplot. We aren't focused on the trainer whom they followed, we're trying to give Brock a story, while explaining why the same city has 2 major buildings catch ON FIRE within the same arc. Even then, it's something more for the fans to piece together, rather than part of the main plot. I may not be able to fix all the loopholes in the manga, but I can write my own story into the existing one because the two match up.

From what I picture, your description of Brock remembering the burning center would make it seem like he blames Red for it. That really doesn't make sense in the context of the chapter, seeing as how Red wasn't even IN TOWN when the incident occurred.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Red_the_knight on Sun May 22, 2011 4:30 pm

I don't know what to say, but it seems you would make a good script writer. Serious feedback. Maybe should be a Feedback expert.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sun May 22, 2011 4:39 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:I don't know what to say, but it seems you would make a good script writer. Serious feedback. Maybe should be a Feedback expert.
You flatter me, but all I'm doing is using what's in the story to draw my own conclusions. That's just basic analysis.

As for script writing, I have a version of VS Pikachu in the works. Shall we get back to the topic please?
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Red_the_knight on Sun May 22, 2011 4:59 pm

Oh, sure. Continue.

This sure is talking about Brock and his plotholes. I got nothing to defend since the story from Brock's point of view fits.

All I could tell, he might be in his gym. If Magmar was around, Brock would have been aware, but he wasn't. There also has to be a reason where the Magmars come from.

As for Pikachu hitting Onix's horn, that's what I was thinking, just in the anime how Ash's Pikachu hit Rhydon's horn. That doesn't explain how Red's Pikachu was able to bypass a ground type, but aim at a weak, Red's Pikachu wins.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Sun May 22, 2011 5:01 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:As for Pikachu hitting Onix's horn, that's what I was thinking, just in the anime how Ash's Pikachu hit Rhydon's horn. That doesn't explain how Red's Pikachu was able to bypass a ground type, but aim at a weak, Red's Pikachu wins.
Wrong thread. That subject is being discussed here: http://pokespeanime.forumotion.com/t419p45-red-catch-misty-gyarados
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Red_the_knight on Mon May 23, 2011 7:56 am

Oh, sorry. You're talking about the plotholes from Brock.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Mon May 23, 2011 12:14 pm

The Black Glove wrote:After reading your argument, I went and looked it up. Giovanni stated he thought that Red's victories were just a fluke, until after awhile, Red brought down his main base in Saffron City, and he hadn't paid much mind to him until then. Therefore, the evidence supports that Team Rocket did not start that fire.

I know your first counter-argument to that will be the sign outside the Pokemon Center which reads the following: "Yesterday, our center was damaged (read: destroyed) by unknown vandals. We will reopen when our machines are running again. We apologize for any inconvience this has caused." From this, we know that the damage was caused a day in advance, and that nobody saw who the vandals (read: terrorists) were. However, let's assume that the trainer who was attacked by the Magmar was walking through the Viridian Forest, and came across Team Rocket. Seeing as how Blaine was a part of Team Rocket at the time, it is likely that they had fire pokemon whom they had experimented with, and may have been using as guards. Magmar notices the trainer, they lock eyes, and the chase begins. Yes, vandals are responsible, but since all anyone saw was the Pokemon, the vandals are unknown.

Giovanni also says, after Red traps the Magmar, that Magmar are very vengeful. Assuming this,we can believe that they chased a trainer to the Pokemon Center, and burnt it down trying to attack him/her. That's when Brock, being the most powerful trainer in the town, would likely be informed, and step in to help. Brock defeats the Magmar, causing them to retreat, but since as Giovanni said, Magmar are very vengeful, they build up their power over time, and come back to wreak havoc on the town. Since they can't find Brock, they take revenge in the best way they know how- burning all his stuff. This is when Red shows up and defeats them. Brock, being the Gym Leader, and as a result, chained to the town, would eventually return to find the Museum gone, and, since the Gym Leaders likely know about Giovanni, as he was once one of them, Brock would recognize the sand from Sandshrew's ground-type attacks, and the dead Magmar as Giovanni's handiwork.

Also, I did state the evidence. Brock is a Gym Leader. He has power. This makes him the equivalent of the Town's Law Enforcement. If s*** is going down in his town, people are going to tell him about it. If that isn't enough, consider the fact that when a building catches fire, it sends up a smoke cloud. Red wouldn't be able to see it because he was in Viridian Forest, and the trees would have blocked his view of the sky. Sure, we could assume he was on Route 2 ( the section north of the forest), but since the building was cooled off, people were just starting to rebuild, and there was a sign made that SAYS IT WAS YESTERDAY, we can assume it's been at least a day since the fire, and even if Giovanni was targeting Red, there's no way he could have know Red was there unless he saw it happen. Since Red hadn't left the forest yet, Giovanni would only know Red was to the south, and would have no reason to attack the Pokemon Center.

How's that for evidence?

*ahem* That is no evidence my friend, it is simply speculation. That is all it is, plain and simple. You're just assuming stuff will happen based off fact, theorising basically. Sure they seem legitimately reasonable, but you're trying to make something canon which is not canon. It's fanon, what the fan(s) think is canon, no matter how believable it seems. Don't assume stuff dude. It makes an ass out of u and me (trollolololol)

If Brock was there at the Museum fire, he would have noticed Red, who likely would have drawn a lot of attention to himself between being a hero in Saffron City, as well as someone who beat the town's Gym Leader, not to mention the fact that he's the one fighting the Magmar (which should be Brock's job). Who was standing by Red during that fight? It isn't Cinderella. Brock, being a Gym Leader himself, would instantly recognize Giovanni for who he is- an ungodly powerful Gym Leader, who has been missing for years, and probably try to say something. Not to mention, if anyone would have been fighting the Onix when Red arrived, it would have been Brock. It makes more sense for him to have been out of town, and it helps keep Giovanni's identity a mystery to Red until they face each other in the final battle, making the reveal all the more dramatic.

After rereading the manga, very well, although Brock could be inside the building with his protective rock types saving kids like a fireman but that's besides the point. Fine, no showing at the museum and forgive my sievey memory.

Brock has the least characterization/backstory of the Gym Leaders.

...And? The manga may have focused on him less because the anime is literally all over him. If you want to flesh him out your way as in the manga, go write a fanfic. =/ After all that's where that kind of expansion goes, and you already have enough material for a two-shot. XD

Besides, this isn't a subplot. We aren't focused on the trainer whom they followed, we're trying to give Brock a story, while explaining why the same city has 2 major buildings catch ON FIRE within the same arc. Even then, it's something more for the fans to piece together, rather than part of the main plot. I may not be able to fix all the loopholes in the manga, but I can write my own story into the existing one because the two match up.

From what I picture, your description of Brock remembering the burning center would make it seem like he blames Red for it. That really doesn't make sense in the context of the chapter, seeing as how Red wasn't even IN TOWN when the incident occurred.

Yes you are creating a subplot! But. >_> Eh. It was just a random idea. And speech is easier to add than animation, so just a few words on how Brock wished he could be helping rebuilding the Pokemon center and yet the nurse insisted he do his Gym Leader duties. Hey presto, redemption. No need for something so long and complicated because how you're having Brock deal with these fires IS a subplot. And by the sounds of it, one that's probably gonna take up a good half of an episode. We're trying to expand the world of the manga by giving it colour, sound and movement, not it's own story, as that's the reason we're doing any of this. So I refer to my argument above about you trying to create fanon with theorised consumptions based on fact that lead to one theory and another, otherwise without any evidence whatsoever.

Still, that is but my humble opinion. So it may still be considered by other staff members. Unfortunately though, I don't think they'd appreciate extra work to be honest, and we've already agreed not to do any filler (which is pretty much what you're suggesting), but...who knows.

Sure was nice for someone to challenge my interlect like that though. Usually the fact that I'm a mod scares everyone off! (lol) You have my respect, fellow debater.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Mon May 23, 2011 2:05 pm

Sure was nice for someone to challenge my interlect like that though. Usually the fact that I'm a mod scares everyone off! (lol) You have my respect, fellow debater.

Why thank you. If there's anything I've learned from college, it's that you should question authority. Besides, I've been a mod before on other sites, so I don't really see you as something all that intimidating. After all, it's not like I'm doing anything that would justify me getting banned.

Bring it on.

Kazaazz wrote:*ahem* That is no evidence my friend, it is simply speculation. That is all it is, plain and simple. You're just assuming stuff will happen based off fact, theorising basically. Sure they seem legitimately reasonable, but you're trying to make something canon which is not canon. It's fanon, what the fan(s) think is canon, no matter how believable it seems. Don't assume stuff dude. It makes an ass out of u and me (trollolololol)

Imagine that this is a courtroom. I am the prosecution, and you are the defense. The only "witness" to the events is what occurred in the manga. How are we going to piece together what happened? We rely on the evidence that is present, and then using that evidence, WE MAKE A STORY THAT THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS.

Since you don't like me making assumptions, we could never make a complete story. If you want just the cold hard facts, I'll make you a list.

FACTS:
  • Pewter City had 2 buildings burned down in the same arc (no other building had such a fate).
  • The first fire (Pokemon Center) occurred before Red went to the Pokemon Center.
  • Nobody saw who/what caused the first fire.
  • The second fire (Museum) was caused by a pair of Magmar.
  • Aside from Green's Charmeleon, Magmar are the only Fire-type Pokemon that have been seen in Pewter City.
  • Magmar have been noted to have 2 of the following traits- they are very vengeful, and their coloration makes them difficult to see in a fire.
  • Brock is the Gym Leader in Pewter City.
  • Gym Leaders have a duty to solve major problems in their towns. (Supervillians, Invading Armies, Arsons, etc.)
  • Burning buildings make smoke clouds.
  • Brock was not present at the second fire.
  • Giovanni is ALSO a Gym Leader.
  • The Gym Leaders are aware of each other.
  • Giovanni has a reputation for using Ground-Type Pokemon and being totally ruthless in battle.
  • Team Rocket Members wear specific uniforms that are easily recognizable.
  • Red was not present for the first fire.
  • Rock/Ground types are strong against Fire Types.


It is with these facts that I make the story I do. I challenge you to refute me.

Brock has the least characterization/backstory of the Gym Leaders.

...And? The manga may have focused on him less because the anime is literally all over him. If you want to flesh him out your way as in the manga, go write a fanfic. =/ After all that's where that kind of expansion goes, and you already have enough material for a two-shot. XD

So? Misty is also covered in as much detail as Brock in the anime, but she gets much more characterization than Brock in the manga. That's not including her little crush on Red, which was announced in the G/S/C arc, or her capture of Suicune. Besides, this is hardly enough material for a seperate one-shot. Here is what would likely appear in the episodes:

Episode VS Pikachu: As the end-of-the-episode cliffhanger, Red finds out that the Pokemon Center was burned down, and Pika is his only Pokemon at full health.

Episode Vs Onix: Before the episode starts, we see the Pokemon Center Fire. Inside, a trainer is trying desperately to escape (although the Magmar cannot be seen within the flames, but we can add some shadowy effects to give the impression they are there) As the trainer is pinned down, a jet of flames shoots out to engulf him, but Brock steps in the way and uses Geodude to block the flames. We get a cool shot of him preparing to battle, and then we go to the episode opening.

As Red is battling, Brock enters in off-screen. One of the trainers (consider the one who lost to Red in round one) asks where Brock has been, and he replies he was helping set up the Pokemon Center's temporary location, but he's saved his main Pokemon for the match. After the battle with Red, Brock gives him the Boulder Badge, and notes that there is a temporary center at which Red can heal his Pokemon (which explains why Saur and Poli are at full health when Red introduces Pika to them at the end of the episode).

Episode Vs Magmar: Since they would normally be helping out, there are a number of townspeople around trying to put out the fire, remarking that the flames almost seem alive as if they keep jumping out at them. This is what prompts Red to believe there are Magmar hiding in the flames. He spots them, and points them out to the villagers. They remark that if Brock wasn't off training, he could handle the Magmar just fine, but Red says he can handle them in his place.

After the episode, Brock returns to find the Museum in ruins, and the townspeople are helping to rebuild the rubble. He asks what happened, and the villagers tell him that a man and a young boy came by and stopped the Magmar who were burning the museum. Brock notices the handiwork, and guesses from the fact that it is a ground type that it looks like "his" handiwork, and we end the episode with Giovanni looking intimidating, perhaps revealing his red "R".

Besides, this isn't a subplot. We aren't focused on the trainer whom they followed, we're trying to give Brock a story, while explaining why the same city has 2 major buildings catch ON FIRE within the same arc. Even then, it's something more for the fans to piece together, rather than part of the main plot. I may not be able to fix all the loopholes in the manga, but I can write my own story into the existing one because the two match up.

From what I picture, your description of Brock remembering the burning center would make it seem like he blames Red for it. That really doesn't make sense in the context of the chapter, seeing as how Red wasn't even IN TOWN when the incident occurred.

Yes you are creating a subplot! But. >_> Eh. It was just a random idea. And speech is easier to add than animation, so just a few words on how Brock wished he could be helping rebuilding the Pokemon center and yet the nurse insisted he do his Gym Leader duties. Hey presto, redemption. No need for something so long and complicated because how you're having Brock deal with these fires IS a subplot. And by the sounds of it, one that's probably gonna take up a good half of an episode. We're trying to expand the world of the manga by giving it colour, sound and movement, not it's own story, as that's the reason we're doing any of this. So I refer to my argument above about you trying to create fanon with theorised consumptions based on fact that lead to one theory and another, otherwise without any evidence whatsoever.


It's only a subplot if the Magmar or the trainer they chased to the Pokemon Center is followed. I'm not giving an entire half-an-hour to these events, I'm only mentioning them within the text to make sense of the events that are otherwise thrown in without any significance. And how is adding on a bit more story not expanding the world of the manga? These may be theorised "consumptions", but they are based on the evidence that is present, and don't interfere with any other part of the story.

Besides, the Magmar are nameless, unimportant characters to the plot. Let's take for example, the puffy-haired thug who appears in episode 1 of "History's Mightiest Disciple: Kenichi". He appears for the sole reason of giving Kenichi (the hero) someone to beat up. He later appears again around episode 10, looking for Kenichi and female lead Miu for the sole purpose of revenge. Why did the author bother to bring him back? He needed someone for Kenichi's teacher, Akisame, to beat up.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Blackmagebard on Thu May 26, 2011 6:40 pm

This could possibly tie into the whole omake idea, if we wanted to assume that we didn't need to actually add any substantial material.

Add in after the credits sequence of the episode Brock walking back into town while he describes what he was doing outside (possibly getting fossils at Mt. Moon, given that's what they threw in with him in the actual game). Then just show him talking to some random resident telling him "Oh hey there, pal. I just got some great fossils for the museum!" "Uh, Mr. Brock..." Zoom out of the city: "WHAAAAAAAAAAT?!!!"

The best way to approach plot holes like these is with humor, in my opinion.

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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Fri May 27, 2011 10:44 am

Alrighty BG, here's the lowdown. Straight out of your facts, I quote that "Nobody saw who/what caused the first fire." Ergo, this is your justification for coming up with this story, which is based purely on speculation from that fact. I just don't think it should merit its own story.

On a seperate note, I actually quite like mage's idea there. Omake's are almost MEANT to exploit the Fridge Logic in the show, and just these short comedic things to show we're fans and we notice this stuff would be awesome. Sure it might not actually redeem Brock's character this way, but it would definitely show that we call the author's up on the errors that you BG have pointed out. After all, although I know that the anime is supposed to expand on the manga, I also feel that we shouldn't essentially be wirting fanfiction. And then of course in the omakes it wouldn't be canon, and much less work overall. So yeah, if we were going to redeem Brock's character or even show this stuff, I would be absolutely in support of doing it this way.

Of course I remember in another thread where we talked about the possibility of omakes and how a lot of people rejected it as extra work. But yeah, for clearing up things in canon, I'd love to use those little omakes as how we do it. I think I'll post on that omake thread now to hopefully expand on this idea, but still, generally, none of the staff like extra work. So it's still a long shot.

And as a final note: Blackmage, you are amazing.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Fri May 27, 2011 10:59 am

Kazaazz wrote:Alrighty BG, here's the lowdown. Straight out of your facts, I quote that "Nobody saw who/what caused the first fire." Ergo, this is your justification for coming up with this story, which is based purely on speculation from that fact. I just don't think it should merit its own story.
OBJECT-*cough**wheeze*

I never claimed "This is what happened". If it was what happened, the author would have made it clear from the beginning. What I HAVE been saying is that there's an inconsistency that makes Brock look bad, and this is how I propose to fix plotholes as well as make Brock look more competent.

And this isn't because I'm debating you, but I also disagree with Blackmagebard's idea on ending the episode comically. The episode with the second fire would be completely useless if not for the following facts:
- Red receives Old Amber from Giovanni, which would later become Aero, a staple member of Red's team, and his only flier (unless he chooses to use Fearow from the Bill incedent).
- Giovanni has a chance to witness and comment on Red's battle skills for the first time.
- Giovanni is revealed as a member of Team Rocket (he is not revealed as the leader until his battle with Red)

Note the last point. This ends the chapter with a more foreboding *dun dun duuuuunnn!!!* feel, as we realize Team Rocket is still active, despite the crushing defeat dealt to them by Red, Green, and Blue. We also realize that Giovanni has his eye specifically on Red, and judging by the merciless way he kills the two Magmar, we know he's ridiculously strong. If we try to follow his reveal with Brock's "WHAAAAAATTTT?!!" moment, Brock still fails to look competent, and it ruins the mood of the ending.

Remember, even if my goal is to give Brock more of a chance to redeem himself, the episode's focus character is Giovanni, and the original plot made this ending foreboding. I'd rather fill plotholes than destroy the moment. In my version, at least, Brock is seen examining the ruins in shock, as he realizes who's handiwork the dead Magmars show, without saying out loud who Giovanni is. ("This handiwork... it looks like he's back...") This remains Giovanni to retain his air of mystery, despite a major reveal.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Fri May 27, 2011 11:18 am

Heh, this series needs a butt-monkey.

But anyway, you make valid points, as I have said before, and I like to think we've reached a better understanding. Unfortunately, the staff won't be inclined to do this, but if you're insistent on it, then do it yourself (and I say this not in a mean way). After all it's your idea, and you seem to have the theory behind it, so who best to do this element of exposition? Still, we may reject or accept it, depending on how suitable we feel it to fit in with the rest of the episode, when we come to it. Note the "we". This is not my decision.

As for the omakes, I've seen how Bleach has used them comically all the time, even at the end of the most serious of episodes. Still, I don't think doing an omake is a good idea for EVERY episode.

Hopefully this may satisfy you to some extent because it doesn't seem as if we can come to a sort of agreement where both sides are happy, even with this omake idea. So I'm giving you this opportunity where you can show us how awesome your idea is and how it deserves to be put in the project. Link a script in this thread (Googlesdocs), and we can put up a poll on whether it should be used or not, where everyone can vote/comment.

Agreed, BG?
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Fri May 27, 2011 11:28 am

Kazaazz wrote:Heh, this series needs a butt-monkey.
Various Team Rocket Grunts, Blaine, the Pokemon Fan Club President, Bill... the list goes on.

That point aside, this sounds like a reasonable plan. I was planning on writing the scripts for future episodes anyways (when Supernova ceases to be busy, he promised to look over my audition, so here I wait), and was hoping to write for these episodes to clarify the point anyways. Prepare to have your socks rocked off. Possibly your shoes as well.

As for the omakes, I've had a few ideas as to how that could work, but it wouldn't necessarily need to be at the end. I'll discuss that more in another thread.

Edit: haha! I've just noticed a flaw in my own theory! Oh well. It's something that doesn't make sense for Red's character, and only one (maybe two) words change in the script as a result, so it's not a problem.


Last edited by The Black Glove on Fri May 27, 2011 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by Kazaazz on Fri May 27, 2011 11:35 am

Goody good we are settled then. Post when you're ready and not otherwise!
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by TheViolentTomboy on Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:52 pm

Huh.

Brock? Well, the games do say he goes to Mt. Moon a lot...

I've got my own personal theory that those two Magmar came out of the Viridian Forest. Hell, it is filled to the brim with Pokemon that don't belong there. More foreshadowing if we imply it directly! I do like the idea that Brock sees the aftermath of that battle.

Also, I think that Pika stole food from Pewter because it got kicked out of the Forest by those rampaging Pokemon. Extra reason for it to hate Giovanni.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:10 pm

You asked, and I have delivered.

Episode 4: VS Pikachu
I actually did this originally as part of the script audition, but since the Pokemon Center is shown to have first burnt down in this episode, I figured I should throw in this one as well.

Alternate Script: Red Vs Green
While writing Episode 4, I thought it was too short, and instead of Red and Green having a stare-off, they face each other head-on in battle. This explains why Saur (despite being perfectly healthy while fighting Pika) is at low health before the Gym Challenge.

Episode 5: VS Onix
We've been discussing a lot how Pika beats Onix in another thread, so I picked the version I liked best and put it here. I also thought it would be a great place to introduce some Omake characters as cameos (I'll be discussing the Omakes in the appropriate thread).

Episode 23: VS Magmar
I'm still not sure what to call that thing Red does with Sand, but isn't that technically Sand Tomb? Whatever. I also made one of the Pewter City Townspeople own Sand, because Red never uses or makes reference to it again, and it would make sense for Red to use another trainer's Pokemon, rather than fill empty slots with Pokemon he doesn't use. Switching Giovanni and Brock's perspectives at the end gives some suspense, and I've also written it to leave to the imagination of the viewers what Giovanni did to the Magmar.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by MrMaster on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:46 pm

In response to that...

I like the idea of Red and Green actually fighting at that one point, but that line referring to evolution, ("You mean that weird theory about how humans came from Mankeys?") doesn't fit. It's pointless comic relief, and it clashes with the fact that Poli has already evolved at this point, from a Poliwag, to save Red. (As mentioned in Chapter 11, Vs. Electabuzz)

As well, I agree Brock should be expanded on a bit, but the sign at the center clearly states that the cause of the machine's damages were unknown. If Brock had fought the Magmar (assuming the Magmar are the ones that destroyed the machines), then it wouldn't be unknown.

Lastly, in the later chapter, Vs. Magmar, Red stated that he caught the Sandshrew. It wouldn't have been borrowed from another person, as it was still at a very low level, and newly caught, according to Red and Giovanni's conversation.

So yes, I agree that Brock's backstory needs a bit of work. But I don't think it's a good idea to venture too far from the original manga in doing so.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by The Black Glove on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:13 pm

MrMaster wrote:I like the idea of Red and Green actually fighting at that one point, but that line referring to evolution, ("You mean that weird theory about how humans came from Mankeys?") doesn't fit. It's pointless comic relief, and it clashes with the fact that Poli has already evolved at this point, from a Poliwag, to save Red. (As mentioned in Chapter 11, Vs. Electabuzz)
Fair enough. I can fix that.

As well, I agree Brock should be expanded on a bit, but the sign at the center clearly states that the cause of the machine's damages were unknown. If Brock had fought the Magmar (assuming the Magmar are the ones that destroyed the machines), then it wouldn't be unknown.
We discussed this in the thread a bit, but I can expand on my thought process here. The idea is, Red is only able to see Magmar when the flames died down, and he only knew of their presence because he had a hunch and scanned the fire with his Pokedex (which does not require sight to work). This ties in with Magmar's Red/Blue Pokedex entry (found here) that states Magmar can hide perfectly among the flames. As a result, although Brock knew someone caused the fire and fought them off, he was not able to see who or what he was fighting, hence the "unknown vandals" on the sign. Giovanni, being a very experienced and calculated person, probably had the chance to at least fight some Magmar, if not study them, and could be aware what their flames feel like. Brock, a Rock Gym leader who rarely sees fire types at all, would not.

Lastly, in the later chapter, Vs. Magmar, Red stated that he caught the Sandshrew. It wouldn't have been borrowed from another person, as it was still at a very low level, and newly caught, according to Red and Giovanni's conversation.
If you live in a city, and one of the majorly important buildings is burning, but your town has no fire fighting team, what would you do? The whole town gets together and tries to put it out, of course! That's why there are townspeople on the scene. Since Pewter City is famous for Rock Types, it would not be unheard of for someone to own a ground type. Since, as the townsperson says, he couldn't reach Brock with it, we can safely assume the Sandshrew is low level (at least lower level than Brock's Onix, which is fairly low-level itself in the games).

Why have a townsperson own the Sandshrew? Well, part of it is that the townspeople are there, and should be helping to save their own town. The other is that you NEVER see Red using Sand ever again. EVER. And why should he when he's got a team of much higher level Pokemon, and a higher level ground type (Diglett, caught in VS Porygon)? It's odd enough that he isn't using his Diglett (or Krabby, whom he doesn't trade away for another chapter), but he also catches a Pokemon he doesn't need or use? Besides, if the Pokemon really was newly caught, how did it perform a trainer's command without Red telling it what to do?

So yes, I agree that Brock's backstory needs a bit of work. But I don't think it's a good idea to venture too far from the original manga in doing so.
Unless Red pulls Sand out of nowhere in a battle, I haven't broken the canon of the series yet, and as an added bonus, threw in a chance for the Pokedex and Brock to be viewed as more useful.
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Re: Brock Plotholes

Post by MrMaster on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:20 pm

Alright. I can work with those. The only one of those that really bugged me was the evolution one. The others, I actually liked what you did. I just feel it isn't as close to the original as it could be. For those few, I was just playing devil's advocate with my responses, pointing out anything I saw as a possible flaw.
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