Red catch Misty Gyarados

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sun May 16, 2010 6:53 am

I like the Bide idea though. Before I was thinking like a super-effective Hidden Power, but I like Bide because it fits the generation and matches with Brock's original signature move.

I mean, we could just add a fatal attack from Onix to add suspense (maybe slamming Pika with his tail across the floor), and then Pika makes a comeback finish. And then Brock goes on to recognize how he was defeated, etc.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by TheViolentTomboy on Sun May 16, 2010 9:10 am

For the Mew discussion, just have Blue say that Mew is undocumented instead of saying it's the 151st pokemon. We actually know what's going to happen in the future from this point so we might as well fill in any plot holes or continuity errors.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by SaiTurtlesninjaNX on Sun May 16, 2010 9:39 am

I didn't know there was a problem untell I when on bulbapedia. Oh will if people start asking we can put in on a website or something. I gauss this thread is for the fix continuity errors that need fixing them.

Violenttomboy:
I say we don't have them say that there are 151 know pokemon or any number of pokemon in the world for the show.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Ama-chan on Sun May 16, 2010 3:40 pm

I think it is important to point out the number of pokemon in a generation, I always thought it was an important factor in the games and the anime. Red does say 150, which actually adds mewtwo, mew being said to be the 151st pokemon, actually, so Oak already knew about mewtwo probably, or had some inkling about it and put some data into the dex. The same could probably be put for Mew, of course Oak had an inkling to what mew was, knew the 'myths' or whatever, so he added data in case anyone could see it with the dex, than gather more data. So... Rambling finished, I think mew would be in the dex, along with mewtwo, because Oak is supposed to be some kind of crazy genius, or something.

Next, about toxic. I think only poisen-type pokemon could spit toxic out of their mouths. Muk, tentacool, and bulbasaur would be included, because poisen types cant be poisened, and toxic has is likely to poisen a pokemon from the inside out if it spits it out, maybe kill them, lolz. So, Green probably just found a new way to make Pika use toxic, by its tail... Oh gosh, gross!!! Maybe we shouldnt do the tail thing... -.-;

Ano, for bide, I agree. We should use that. I always wondered how Pika could take out that onix with an electric attack, even back then it woulda been impossible. Pika knows bide, and, in my personal opinion, bide would be fueled by the fighting spirit and anger... I mean, if you were continuouly hit, you'd get mad, right? But if you were just absorbing the attacks, what if you loose concentration and dont stand up to it? Or what if you get knocked down or something, than bide would be useless, wouldnt it? So, just the one attack and finding that Red is important may make Pika super strong with bide, correct???
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Sun May 16, 2010 4:06 pm

okay, then I guess everybody likes bide. (I like the idea of Onix attacking pikachu directly, it does add to the suspense and the explaination)

but i think the pokemon number still does need to be discussed. (if oak knew about mewtwo, wouldn't he try to stop it? Ack, plotholes!)
but did mew even get a pokedex entry in the manga? (*re-reads the manga a couple of times)
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Aki11 on Sun May 16, 2010 9:09 pm

then how about 149 pokemon? idk>W>

and I think bide sounds like the only attack that pikachu can use to defeat an onix and all... i think most people will go, "what is this an electric attack can't defeat an onix!" if we animate exactly as that. (especially when one of the reasons pokespe is well known for is that they follow the games better than the manga. So a more possible attack should be used and allX3)
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sun May 16, 2010 9:54 pm

When was the number 150 ever mentioned in the manga?

The 150/151 pokemon is pretty exclusive to the Kanto region in itself (and even that changes in the later generations), so it should be specified that that only applies to their area, or the line should just be rephrased to something like "there are hundreds of pokemon in the world", etc.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by TheViolentTomboy on Mon May 17, 2010 8:09 am

When Red and Blue look for Mew, Red states that there are only150 pokemon and Blue says that Mew is the 151st.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by SaiTurtlesninjaNX on Mon May 17, 2010 9:26 am

@TheViolentTomboy
You mean. When Red and Green was looking for Mew. Blue is the girl Green is the boy.


We shouldn't be specific on how many pokemon there are in the world. If we say there about 200 pokemon just in the Kanto region that should be fine.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Aki11 on Mon May 17, 2010 9:32 am

i think theviolenttomboy means red and blue. (the time when they were looking for mew maybe?) (as in blue girl, not green)

we shouldn't change it to 200, because for the earlier versions of the games the pokemon are referred to as undiscovered. For now i think sticking to 149(maybe?) pokemon and mew being the 150th and mewtwo is the 151st would be better plot wise?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by SaiTurtlesninjaNX on Mon May 17, 2010 10:03 am

Red and Blue was looking for Mew in a leter part of the first arc. Wow I need to re-read the first arc.

I still think it's not a good idea to have a specific number like 149. 149 sounds to be too specific to me it. I think it's better just to have them estimate on the number of pokemon in there region. A 150 do sound like a good estimate even those there really be like 160 pokemon in that region.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Mon May 17, 2010 3:42 pm

Did mewtwo even get a pokedex entry in the manga? (mew too? Excuse the pun)

I'm not even sure if mewtwo should get a pokedex entry. He's a clone that prof. Oak had no clue of. What let him get a pokedex entry? (I dunno...I know it's in the games...but...)

this is why I think that maybe we should leave some of the inconsisties in. (If we were to change it, we'd get angry comments from the purists. If we leave it, people would complain about the plothole. Maybe I'm just overthinking it...)

I think we should Fix the easier plotholes, but maybe leave the discussion evoking plotholes alone.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Fri May 06, 2011 12:49 pm

We aren't going to get anywhere discussing the significance of numbers. It's odd enough that Mewtwo comes before Mew, but you also have to consider the fact that Kabuto, Omanyte, Aerodactyl, and the evolutions, are not found living in the wild. Why did Oak put in data for Pokemon who were not living around rare but confirmed Pokemon like Snorlax and Eevee? For that matter, why does Porygon, a computer program brought into reality, count as a Pokemon?

I still find it odd that Pika would know Bide while fighting Brock. After all, Brock is the one who gives out the TM that you learn Bide from in the first place. Unless Pika was abandoned by another trainer who beat Brock... of course, there's no proof that in this world, you need to beat a Gym Leader to get their TM.

Speaking of Pika's attacks, you have to consider that Green isn't the only one who creates an unofficial attack. Yellow has Pika use Megavolt (which could technically be replaced by Thunder), and Pika learns 'Surf' by turning a substitute into a surf board, something Chuchu presumably imitates to use 'Fly'. There's Lorelei's combo attack with Dewgong and Cloyster (the first Icicle Spear attack?), as well as her Jynx's Ice Handcuffs. Dia's Mach-one-and-only Razor Leaf... you get the idea now. Just accept that trainers and their Pokemon can create new attacks that aren't official.

And since Gyarados was stolen, it was probably in it's Pokeball at the time. Team Rocket could have easily released it, like other trainers do, thereby making it possible for another trainer to capture. It would actually help a lot if we had a short scene at the start of the episode where Misty demands a Team Rocket Grunt (or Blaine/Giovanni could also work for this, and get some foreshadowing) return her Gyarados. He smiles, tells her she's welcome to it because it was a failure of a test subject, and releases Gyarados, who goes berserk. The Grunt/Blaine/Giovanni then destroys the Great Ball it had been held in and walks off, leaving Misty to confront Gyarados. If we make it Giovanni, we can make this event be the primary reason he becomes interested in Red, hence, Giovanni's hanging with him in the Diglett tunnel.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Sat May 07, 2011 2:29 am

Well! You made a lot of good points there!

But what I really liked was your gyarados idea. I think it could work and add some tension! (but I'm not sure we should use Giovanni tho...it would be as if Misty already knew who the leader of Team Rocket is)

But nonetheless, you made some pretty powerful points! Keep up the suggestions! ^^
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Sat May 07, 2011 8:11 am

Maybe next time the topic should be called, "Manga Errors". I'm convinced about the Gyarados idea, having Team Rocket release Gyarados to a wild Pokemon.

But I'm not convinced about having Pikachu learning Bide to defeat Onyx. Why? I have three reasons:
#1: If you want Bide, you need to defeat the gym leader, Brock. How can Pikachu actually learn Bide?
#2: In order to use Bide, you have to wait for Onyx to hit Pikachu a lot, all Pikachu did was dodge the attacks and shock Onyx's weak spot
#3: If you were to have Pikachu stand still and let him take a few hits, Pikachu would go down in two turns.

I don't know on how Pikachu defeated Onyx, but ever since Pikachu fought against Giovanni and his ground types, it looks like Pikachu surpassed the ground type Pokemon with 1,000,000 volts.
And it looks like there are actually weakness to beat a ground Pokemon with an electric type, just like in the Anime on how Pikachu was able to shock Rhydon, Blaine's Pokemon, on its horn.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sat May 07, 2011 11:13 am

I think the reason why Mew comes after Mewtwo in the Kanto Pokedex is because technically, Mew isn't native to Kanto, while Mewtwo is. Mew came from South America, while Mewtwo was experimented on in Cinnabar Island (it was a Mew at birth, but due to splicing its genes it counts as a different species now). So while the order seems arbitrary, I think that's probably the main reason that Mewtwo comes first, because Mew is somewhat a foreign species to Kanto.

Anyways, regarding Pika's victory against Onix, I was thinking the Hidden Power move would probably be the best way to explain it off, although I guess some people wouldn't like that since it deals with a mechanic introduced in a later generation. Bide could work too, perhaps with more explanation like Pika was using Growl the whole time to reduce damage to itself as well as Tail Whip to lower Onix's defense for a big hit. Or, just the Growl and Tail Whip strategy while Pika launches a couple of critical hit Quick Attacks or Slams.

But yeah, the manga's broken plenty of rules mechanics-wise. It doesn't really strictly follow the game's mechanics until around R/S or later, but even then it falters a bit iirc.

Speaking of Pika's attacks, you have to consider that Green isn't the only one who creates an unofficial attack. Yellow has Pika use Megavolt (which could technically be replaced by Thunder), and Pika learns 'Surf' by turning a substitute into a surf board, something Chuchu presumably imitates to use 'Fly'.

Well, Surf and Fly are actually supported in the games (they're both event/special moves for Pikachu in the video games, although the concepts came from the card game), the manga just gave an explanation as to where the tools for those attacks came from.

As for Megavolt, personally, I kinda wish it'd be retconned to be Volt Tackle now, although left ambiguous. Like, Pika instead rushes towards Lugia as if he did a Volt Tackle attack, but later on, Giovanni doesn't actually name the attack as anything, just comments on how powerful Yellow is.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sat May 07, 2011 2:05 pm

Red_the_knight wrote:I don't know on how Pikachu defeated Onyx, but ever since Pikachu fought against Giovanni and his ground types, it looks like Pikachu surpassed the ground type Pokemon with 1,000,000 volts.
And it looks like there are actually weakness to beat a ground Pokemon with an electric type, just like in the Anime on how Pikachu was able to shock Rhydon, Blaine's Pokemon, on its horn.

One thousand volts. Thunderbolt's japanese name literally means One thousand volts, and Pika only knew Thundershock at that time, so I hardly see how that works. Megavolt was the 1 million volt technique, and it was zapping ground types long before it used that technique (seeing as how that didn't happen until the end of the Yellow Saga). Also, considering "aim for the horn", you need to think of how in the games, the aforementioned Ground type has the ability "Lightningrod", which draws electric attacks to itself in a double battle. Until Pokemon Black and White, the attack was not absorbed, but hit the Pokemon with the technique- case in point, ground types didn't take any damage. What could possibly act as the lightning rod? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with "corn".

Nol wrote:Anyways, regarding Pika's victory against Onix, I was thinking the Hidden Power move would probably be the best way to explain it off, although I guess some people wouldn't like that since it deals with a mechanic introduced in a later generation. Bide could work too, perhaps with more explanation like Pika was using Growl the whole time to reduce damage to itself as well as Tail Whip to lower Onix's defense for a big hit. Or, just the Growl and Tail Whip strategy while Pika launches a couple of critical hit Quick Attacks or Slams.

Well, how about we look at the page it happened on, and try to make sense of it?

http://www.mangareader.net/458-28203-11/pokemon-adventures/chapter-5.html

Okay, this page shows that Pika is moving it's tail, and electricity is coming out wildly. The electric bolts converge on where Onix's Skull Bash is aimed.

http://www.mangareader.net/458-28203-12/pokemon-adventures/chapter-5.html

On this page, we can see that whatever happened to Onix, it split the rock Pokemon into segments.

During the course of the battle, Pika only takes one hit- from a single rock that it fails to avoid during Onix's Rock throw. Since it immediately hits Red with a Thundershock after the fight, we can assume it was not using Bide. Pika (according to Bulbapedia) knows the following moves (confirmed) at the time of the fight- Thundershock, Thunder Wave, Quick Attack. Pika does not show that it knows Bide until the Yellow Saga (interestingly enough, revealed at the same time as Rage and Megavolt). If we consider Pika's level at the time, and the game, the only other move Pika would have (unless Red lucked out on some TMs) is Tail Whip. We could assume Red taught Pika the technique on his own, but seeing as how Pika wouldn't listen to Red until the fight with Brock, that's unlikely.

Here's something more likely- when lightning strikes, it creates a shockwave of air. My guess is, multiple bolts all striking the same area at once created a shockwave that countered the ones Onix was generating (according to Brock). The release of the strain was so great, that Onix collapsed from exhaustion.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Red_the_knight on Sat May 07, 2011 4:39 pm

The Black Glove wrote:
One thousand volts. Thunderbolt's japanese name literally means One thousand volts, and Pika only knew Thundershock at that time, so I hardly see how that works. Megavolt was the 1 million volt technique, and it was zapping ground types long before it used that technique (seeing as how that didn't happen until the end of the Yellow Saga). Also, considering "aim for the horn", you need to think of how in the games, the aforementioned Ground type has the ability "Lightningrod", which draws electric attacks to itself in a double battle. Until Pokemon Black and White, the attack was not absorbed, but hit the Pokemon with the technique- case in point, ground types didn't take any damage. What could possibly act as the lightning rod? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with "corn".

Most Pokemon I know are just Rhyhorn, Rhydon, Manetric, and any other Pokemon I don't know. The Pokemon I do remember that has horns are Onix, Steelix, Nido familes, and Rhyhorn families. This will be difficult for the Thundershock to hit Onyx in the right spot.

And this is Generation I. Abilities don't appear until Generation III-V. The bolt idea around Onyx's body is good. That could work for hitting Onyx's weak spot just in the Anime how Ash's Pikachu big Thundershock/bolt shocked everywhere, same thing with sprinkling water.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by SkyStormKuja on Sat May 07, 2011 10:14 pm

But yeah, the manga's broken plenty of rules mechanics-wise. It doesn't really strictly follow the game's mechanics until around R/S or later, but even then it falters a bit iirc.
I think, personally, that we don't really have to explain said phenomena in the anime, much like it wasn't explained in the manga. There are several mechanics employed in the Poke Special manga that doesn't add up to the games, but that doesn't mean its a problem.

I believe the way Pikachu's attack was used against Onix was more of a 'physical' strike rather than the usual shock the entire enemy thing. Like hitting someone with a really hot iron on a weak spot.

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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sun May 08, 2011 2:15 am

Red_the_knight wrote:Most Pokemon I know are just Rhyhorn, Rhydon, Manetric, and any other Pokemon I don't know. The Pokemon I do remember that has horns are Onix, Steelix, Nido familes, and Rhyhorn families. This will be difficult for the Thundershock to hit Onyx in the right spot.

And this is Generation I. Abilities don't appear until Generation III-V.

Only the Rhyhorn and Cubone lines were able to use this ability without getting hurt (until generation IV). My point is that just because it happened in the anime doesn't mean it can happen logically here. Ground types are not hurt by electric type attacks. Period.

SkyStormKuja wrote:I think, personally, that we don't really have to explain said phenomena in the anime, much like it wasn't explained in the manga. There are several mechanics employed in the Poke Special manga that doesn't add up to the games, but that doesn't mean its a problem.
Yes, it only breaks the most basic laws of Pokemon set down by Satoshi Taijiri himself. =) We are making something based off the manga, but the manga has inconsistencies with what we know to be right- unless you think it's okay to wear the thunder as armor. Remember that Satoshi-sensei claimed this was the closest to his original view, not a perfect representation, which means we can take it to the next step.

SkyStormKuja wrote:I believe the way Pikachu's attack was used against Onix was more of a 'physical' strike rather than the usual shock the entire enemy thing. Like hitting someone with a really hot iron on a weak spot.
The point I made with my shockwave theory. We also have to consider that shortly afterwards, Red fights a Rhyhorn/Rhydon (it evolves mid-way through the battle), and during the fight, Pika throws Rhydon off balance and cuts a boulder free from the ceiling with electrical attacks. It is possible that we can assume the electrical bolts cause a small explosion on contact, much like how other moves (such as the Bubblebeam that breaks Yellow's arm in a single pop) works.

EDIT: We could always assume Pika shocked ITSELF. After all, if you zap yourself with high voltage electricity, your power grows!

Brock: "It's wearing the thunder as armor!"


Last edited by The Black Glove on Thu May 19, 2011 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Deus ex Machina no Jutsu)
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by MokaSooN on Fri May 20, 2011 10:16 pm

In my opinion, leave him in the pokeball, not great ball... why? because if is a great ball then you have to change all scenes where gyarados appear in the pokeball, ONWARDS! I now Mysty gives Red the Gyarados, that means it still inside the great ball, so that means all scenes where Red chose Gyara, it should be a great ball instead of a pokeball....

I don't know if you guys get me?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Mrtweetums on Fri May 20, 2011 11:21 pm

I kinda get it...you wanna keep him in his pokeball, because if we change it to a great ball, we'll have to change all the following scenes with gyarados in his pokeball into gyarados in a great ball?

Was that your point?
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sat May 21, 2011 2:55 pm

I don't even remember Gyara appearing in a Great Ball... maybe I forgot... Anyways, it makes logical sense either way- Red caught Gyara for Misty in a Pokeball, but since Misty uses Great Balls, she likely would have swapped the Pokeball Gyara was kept in, assuming that switching the ball is possible (there is no evidence in any Pokemon canon suggesting either way)

Now, let's do a recap of all the issues and our options to solve them. Keep in mind that there is always the option to leave it as is without explaining anything.


Pika Vs Onix

1.) Pika uses Bide. It survives several attacks from Onix, then blasts it backwards. KO. Unlikely, seeing as how you receive the TM for Bide by beating Brock (maybe Brock can be amazed how it learned the technique despite not having ever seen it), and the fact that Red saved it from a Skull Bash seconds earlier, only to have it be a punching bag is a bit counter-productive, especially since the Pokemon Center is burned down.

2.) Pika uses Quick Attack. The little rodent is too fast for Onix, and chips away it's health. KO.

3.) Pika stands on the edge of the ring during a repeat of Onix's Skull Bash, leading Brock to believe it has nowhere to run. As Onix closes in, Pika uses Flash. The bright light blinds Onix and the bystanders, and while they are blinded, Pika leaps over Onix to land in the ring. Onix's forward momentum from Skull Bash carries it out of the ring, the only time in the entire series where a trainer loses by Ring Out (although Red's Lax came close during the fight with Green). Oddly enough, this move makes complete sense, since Pika is seen using it in "Vs. Rhyhorn" to light up the cave (meaning it was possible it knew the move before the fight), and it is possible to use Flash without the Boulderbadge in battle.

4.) Pika uses a series of Thundershocks that collide all at once. The blast releases a shock wave that cancels out the ones that Onix is supposedly generating. The sudden loss of control causes Onix great strain in its spinning, causing it to crumble. KO. It works when you consider that lightning bolts technically cause a massive amount of kinetic energy, but still feels a little awkward.

5.) Pika shocks the Gym's Sprinklers, like Ash did in the Anime. Rock is weak to water. KO.

6.) Although it's as bad as Iron Tail, Hidden Power is also a possible attack (although since Pika never uses it against Giovanni...it leaves people wondering, and then we have another plot hole.)

7.) Deus Ex Pikachu. AKA "Aim for the Horn!" KO.


Red Captures Gyara

1.) Since Gyara was captured, it is possible it wasn't kept in a Pokeball in the first place (in a flashback with Blaine, it's being held in a giant fish tank of sorts). Hence, it would have been possible to capture.

2.) Team Rocket, having stolen Gyara's Great Ball, runs off with it and experiment on it. Misty has been trying to track them down for months, and finally chases after [a Grunt/Blaine/Giovanni], who has Gyara's Great Ball. Misty demands he return it, and he smiles and says she can have the "failure" back. He releases the Gyarados, then crushes the Great Ball beneath his foot. While Misty fights Gyara, he sneaks off. Red arrives later, and because Gyara's Great Ball was destroyed, he is able to capture it in a Pokeball.


Pika VS Rhyhorn

1.) Well, if we look to the original manga, Pika mixes in a bunch of rubble with its electric attacks, and sends them hurtling at Rhyhorn when they first meet. Since it took a massive attack beforehand, Bide seems like a safe bet.

2.) We could also assume Pika used Thundershock to blast the rocks away and send them flying at Rhyhorn. Just sayin.

3.) Red uses Saur or Poli instead, since they have a type advantage.

Pika VS Rhydon

1.) Again, Bide seems like a safe bet. Pika takes a full-on Stomp from a very large and heavy Pokemon, so then it blasts itself out. The following blast releases enough kinetic energy into the ground to throw Pika into the air, where it bounds off the walls with Quick Attack, weakening the rocks to cause the celing to cave in.

2.) Pika could also use Thundershock to blast away the area under Rhydon's foot, giving it enough space to dash off with Quick Attack.

1a+2a.) In both scenarios, Quick Attack can be replaced with Thundershock, with the shockwave blasting away the rocks to cause the cave-in.

3.) Red uses Saur or Poli instead, since they have a type advantage. This can also be supported by Poli being the one who carries Staryu out.


Last edited by The Black Glove on Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by Nol on Sat May 21, 2011 3:21 pm

"Pika uses Hidden Power! It's Super-Effective! Onix has fainted!"

Although, for the Rhyhorn/Rhydon battle, I just don't like how Red even sends out Pika to begin with to try to win when he already has Saur and Poli for the type advantage.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

Post by The Black Glove on Sat May 21, 2011 4:18 pm

@Nol: I edited with your points. I also noticed that Poli appears at the end of the chapter carrying Misty's Staryu as Red carries Misty, making it more likely for that to happen.
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Re: Red catch Misty Gyarados

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